# Resolved: Most Employment-Discrimination Claims Are, Almost Inherently, Bogus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602 "2008-10-12T18:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/41 "2008-10-13T20:57:31Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > I know **Bill** , that’s the point though – what is the “one reason or another?” The article that originally prompted this (can’t find it just now) was about a guy in his 30s or so who was let go in **early 2004** and “has not found another position.” He’s claiming millions of dollars of damages, based on the theory that his Orthodox Judaism was the cause of his termination. Well come on – if he were that good, four and a half years should probably suffice to convince another, Orthdox-friendly establishment, to take him on. My personal guess that he’s a weirdo, an underperformer, a complainer isn’t based on the beanie on his head, and I doubt the employer’s was, given how the market has voted on him in the intervening years. Is he in the same field and area as you? Otherwise, it could be almost anything. For example, I work for a state agency. My knowledge and skills are highly specialized. If I left this job for any reason , I would be fortunate to find something that paid half as much - I’d pretty much have to start at entry level in a completely new field. You can be damned sure that if I believed I was fired for a discriminatory reason, I’d be suing even if I got another job quickly. Something similar happened to my husband.He worked at a retail store which decided to fire the higher paid store managers, and replace them with younger, cheaper people (the usual reason for age discrimination- the over 40s fired with him didn’t sue because they had to waive that right to get severance pay) ) Found a job quickly enough, but it took a few years before his salary recovered. You see ,at that time the companies in his industry didn’t hire store managers- they hired department managers and promoted from within. I suspect, at any rate, that most employment discrimination claims don’t even have to do with terminations , but with discrimination in other areas such as assignments, pay and promotions. And if this is the case you are [thinking](http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/10/03/on-glorified-paralegal-work-and-false-promises-of-dealmaking/)of , I’m not sure how much of the damages has to do with the claimed discrimination and how much has to do with the other issues. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/42 "2008-10-13T22:22:31Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > I don’t mean to be rude, but have you ever take a course in statistics? Your sample is hardly random and is strongly biased in favor of your own viewpoint. He’s done this kind of thing before. And everytime, someone will point out how laughably foolish his errors in reasoning are. But he persists. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/43 "2008-10-13T22:43:28Z")
Working in the insurance claims industry I have to agree the claims that I’ve come across professionally are for the most part bogus. I haven’t had to handle many, but the few I’ve had seem filed by people who refuse to accept their culpability in their loss of employment. I worked for a while for a company that specialized in insuring the auto trade, mostly dealerships and employment discrimination claims in that business segment were rife. There was one guy who did mostly just that. I have one now involving loss of professional privileges at an institution. The person who filed it over ten years ago is a relentless ego maniac who lost in Federal court and is now wasting everyone’s time and resources in circuit court. This person hasn’t lost any professional license and can still practice, just not within a certain institution. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/44 "2008-10-13T22:54:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He’s done this kind of thing before. And everytime, someone will point out how laughably foolish his errors in reasoning are. But he persists. Go figure. Yes, I’ve taken statistics. Since I haven’t undertaken herein to prove anything as a mathematical matter, that’s not especially germane, though. The OP from its nature is a first-principles argument that most qualified people, it would stand to reason, would not be greatly harmed by irrational discrimination. People can agree or disagree, and have. TMMV. I’ve even acknowledged some unique aspects of my workplace that might make it an outlier (viz., the ease with which people can jump company to company). People rely on and have their actions shaped by personal and anecdotal evidence every day. If they did not, they would waste an awful lot of time. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/45 "2008-10-14T00:34:29Z")
I only know conditions in my own field, but there are whole [magazines](http://www.blackengineer.com/artman/publish/)devoted to recruiting women and minorities, paid for by ads run by all the major employers. They also have their own job fairs, employee associations, professional organizations, and mentoring programs. I find it hard to believe that a company would take out a pricy ad in a special magazine, send a recruiter to a minority job fair, place the new employee with a mentor, and then suddenly start discriminating against him/her. That’s certainly not proof that discrimination never happens, but it’s a pretty good indication that if it does, it’s some rogue manager, not company policy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/46 "2008-10-14T01:03:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > For example, I recall reading about a study in which resumes were sent out, essentially identical, except that some of them contained stereotypically black-sounding or hispanic sounding names. My prediction is that the resumes with white-sounding names get a significantly better reception. Why say that you read about a study, but then predict what the outcome was instead of looking it up? 😕 One study I know of is “The Causes and Consequences of Distinctively Black Names” by Fryer and Levitt: [ > [@PDF](#): > > We find, however, no negative causal impact of having a distinctively Black name on life outcomes. Although that result is seemingly in conflict with previous audit studies involving resumes, we argue that the two sets of findings can be reconciled. > > […] > > The paper concludes by analyzing the causal impact of distinctively Black names on life outcomes. Previous studies have found that distinctively black names are viewed negatively by others (e.g. Busse and Seraydarian 1977). Most persuasive are audit studies in which matched resumes, one with a distinctively Black name and another with a traditionally White name, are mailed to potential employers (Jowell and Prescott-Clarke 1970, Hubbick and Carter 1980, Brown and Gay 1985, Bertrand and Mullainathan 2002). Such studies repeatedly have found that resumes with traditional names are substantially more likely to lead to job interviews than are identical resumes with distinctively Black names. These results suggest that giving one’s child a Black name may impose important economic costs on the child. In our data, however, we find no compelling evidence of a causal impact of Black names on a wide range of life outcomes after controlling for background characteristics. > > Although seemingly in conflict with the audit study findings, we believe the two sets of results can be reconciled. To the extent that Black names are used simply as signals of race by discriminatory employers, it is unlikely that names would be correlated with job outcomes beyond the interview stage since the employer directly observes the applicant’s race once an interview takes place. In the face of discriminatory employers, it is actually in the interest of both employee and employers for Blacks to signal race, either via a name or other resume information, rather than undertaking a costly interview with little hope of receiving a job offer. More generally, we show that Black names are correlated with family background characteristics that may predict labor market productivity, even after controlling for the type of information available to employers on resumes. If that is the case, then it may be efficient (albeit illegal) for employers to use names in screening applicants. Once an individual is personally known to us, names wane dramatically in importance, as a moment of reflection about one’s own oddly named acquaintances and co-workers will likely bear out. Because of this, and the fact that the cost of changing one’s name is low, it is hard to imagine how names could plausibly have a large impact on life outcomes, even if resume callbacks are somewhat reduced. Therefore, we conclude that the stark differences in naming patterns among Blacks and Whites is best explained as a consequence of continued racial segregation and inequality, rather than a cause that is perpetuating these factors. ]([http://www.cramton.umd.edu/workshop/papers/fryer-levitt-distinctively-black-names.pdf](http://www.cramton.umd.edu/workshop/papers/fryer-levitt-distinctively-black-names.pdf)) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/47 "2008-10-14T02:44:57Z")
We don’t need to delve into the world of theory to discuss employment discrimination. There are countless places in the world where there are no effective anti-discrimination laws. I had the opportunity to witness the hiring process at an American run call center in India. All candidates over 30 were instantly disqualified. They were considered too demanding. All unmarried women were disqualified. The company thought the potential of there being a wedding was too distracting. And this is just the stuff I saw. I’m sure people’s individual ethnic biases got in there, too. I saw it happen quite often there. A good friend of mine rented a house and when he showed up to move in, the owner discovered his last name and refused to rent him the house because he didn’t like my friend’s ethnic background. Or another example- just try to get a job teaching English in Asia if you are black or Asian. It can happen, but you will probably get passed up for jobs that you would have gotten if you were a blond haired blue eyed typical American. The evidence is overwhelming that in the absence of employment discrimination laws, discrimination runs rampant. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/48 "2008-10-14T03:48:41Z")
When I was in law school I worked for the “Employment Rights” department of the Attorney General’s Office. This department was misnamed because its function was to defend state agencies from civil rights claims. Based on what the attorneys there told me, many who were good people that were there for 10+ years time, the majority of claims they encountered were, in fact, bogus. Generated by people who were malcontents, or wanted a quick buck from a settlement, or a change of scenery, or to get back at a someone they didn’t like. That said, they always maintained that there was a fair number, though surely a minority, of claims that were legit. Based on that experience I would hesitantly agree with the OP but add that I think its a necessary evil of a very worthwhile system. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/49 "2008-10-14T03:50:37Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > We don’t need to delve into the world of theory to discuss employment discrimination. There are countless places in the world where there are no effective anti-discrimination laws. > > I had the opportunity to witness the hiring process at an American run call center in India. All candidates over 30 were instantly disqualified. They were considered too demanding. All unmarried women were disqualified. The company thought the potential of there being a wedding was too distracting. And this is just the stuff I saw. I’m sure people’s individual ethnic biases got in there, too. I saw it happen quite often there. A good friend of mine rented a house and when he showed up to move in, the owner discovered his last name and refused to rent him the house because he didn’t like my friend’s ethnic background. > > Or another example- just try to get a job teaching English in Asia if you are black or Asian. It can happen, but you will probably get passed up for jobs that you would have gotten if you were a blond haired blue eyed typical American. > > The evidence is overwhelming that in the absence of employment discrimination laws, discrimination runs rampant. These real world examples show that the common argument used by conservatives – “Well, why would a rational businessman discriminate? He’d only be hurting himself” don’t prevent discrimination. The reason is that, as has been proven over and over in many studies, people are very often not rational at all. In particular, people often make decisions that hurt themselves. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/50 "2008-10-14T13:54:34Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > These real world examples show that the common argument used by conservatives – “Well, why would a rational businessman discriminate? He’d only be hurting himself” don’t prevent discrimination. > > The reason is that, as has been proven over and over in many studies, people are very often not rational at all. In particular, people often make decisions that hurt themselves. > > Ed You are assuming that their so-called discriminatory actions are, in fact, irrational. I could, but won’t here, detail why not hiring old workers, or pregnant women, or Hindu brides-to-be, was in fact quite economically rational (albeit I could, in theory get on board with a social-contract argument that we should proscribe such behavior, nonetheless, in the interests of the Greater Good). **even sven** , my comments were made in the context of a society that already has in place a fairly effective prophylactic “anti-discrimination” regime. (That’s implicit in the fact that I discussed “employment discrimination claims” – no such thing would exist in your India hypothetical). I’ve previously agreed that absent such regime, employers would be free to take whatever (possibly arbitrary) actions they desired (whether free employment and an at-will regime is good or bad, YMMV). We do not, however, in the West live in a no-rules regime. “Anti-discrimination”/affirmative action rules exist, and IME are substantively (often perversely, again YMMV) enforced. **Within such regime** , my contention was that those who still fail out, still make claims, were disproportionatly likely to be among life’s losers. In short, my post was not talking about Indian call centers. It was talking about the type of person who would make an employment discrimination claim within a very PC Western corporate environment. Apples/oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602/51 "2008-10-14T19:13:41Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > they can’t get raises, or promotions, or stock options, if the company stagnates This doesn’t match the pattern of golden parachutes I’ve observed both in places I’ve worked and in our current national financial brouhaha. Instead, over and over again, the pattern I see is that management DOES get raises, promotions, and stock options utterly without regard to whether the company stagnates. Here’s some current examples: [Fuld](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_S._Fuld,_Jr.), [Fishman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_H._Fishman). Sailboat [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-most-employment-discrimination-claims-are-almost-inherently-bogus/467602.md?page=2)