# Resolved: My gun-safety plan is smarter than Trump's **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393 "2018-02-23T04:48:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/21 "2018-02-23T20:26:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Bullets aren’t as easily restricted by property boundaries as cars are they? No, but the vicinity over which they are a danger is limited. And nothing is to say that we can’t criminalize shooting a gun at someone. But to say that “a gun in the home is closely analogous to a car on the road” is daft. In this country, at least, the significant majority of gun deaths are suicides, which suggests to me that a gun at home is primarily (but not exclusively) a danger to people in the home. A car on the road is almost exclusively a danger to people out in public. > [@](#): > > Do you agree that some items/devices/tools/systems can be regulated even when they do not venture outside the home? Sure. But it doesn’t in fact follow that _everything_ can be regulated even when it doesn’t venture outside the home. > [@](#): > > What about licensing, insurance, taxes, inspections etc for any weapons that _are_ destined to travel outside the home? I have no objection in principle as long as the regulation scheme isn’t, as I’m sure many would intend it to be, a de facto ban. I have long felt that a licensing scheme is in fact the right way to go. But frankly I think there’s no reason to suspect that the regulatory scheme **septimus** proposes wouldn’t almost immediately used in an effort to regulate out of existence what cannot constitutionally be banned. This is why **septimus** ’s attempt to remove the federal government from the picture entirely, under the guise of “states’ right’s, y’all!” is so disingenuous. The following two positions are in no way contradictory:[ul][li]The federal government should have limited powers, and state government should have broader powers.[\*]The states should not have the power to arbitrarily strip away constitutionally guaranteed rights.[/ul][/li]So long as there is a federally protected right, the federal government must have a voice in attempts to curtail that right. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/22 "2018-02-23T20:33:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > \*\*Resolved: My gun-safety plan is smarter than Trump’s > \*\* > > Not resolved. We already have this today. “Resolved:” in a debate does not mean the matter is settled. It means this is the statement to be debated. If you agree with the statement you argue for the affirmative, if you disagree you argue for the negative. Or if you’re on an academic debate team you’re prepared to argue for either side. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/23 "2018-02-23T21:05:09Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > … This is why **septimus** ’s attempt to remove the federal government from the picture entirely, under the guise of “states’ right’s, y’all!” is so disingenuous. The following two positions are in no way contradictory:[ul][li]The federal government should have limited powers, and state government should have broader powers.[\*]The states should not have the power to arbitrarily strip away constitutionally guaranteed rights.[/ul][/li]So long as there is a federally protected right, the federal government must have a voice in attempts to curtail that right. This was very well put. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/24 "2018-02-23T21:07:59Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > I have no objection in principle as long as the regulation scheme isn’t, as I’m sure many would intend it to be, a de facto ban. I have long felt that a licensing scheme is in fact the right way to go. But frankly I think there’s no reason to suspect that the regulatory scheme **septimus** proposes wouldn’t almost immediately used in an effort to regulate out of existence what cannot constitutionally be banned. Another who agrees the Second Amendment is what is preventing serious gun regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/25 "2018-02-23T21:48:43Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Bullets aren’t as easily restricted by property boundaries as cars are they? Nobody is checking for a license at the end of my driveway. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/26 "2018-02-23T22:16:10Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > But to say that “a gun in the home is closely analogous to a car on the road” is daft. In this country, at least, the significant majority of gun deaths are suicides, which suggests to me that a gun at home is primarily (but not exclusively) a danger to people in the home. A car on the road is almost exclusively a danger to people out in public. You’ve just made my point for me. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/27 "2018-02-23T22:28:14Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Nobody is checking for a license at the end of my driveway. I’m not sure what your point is. Drive a car off your own property and onto the road and you run the risk of being checked and sanctioned in some way if your documents aren’t in order. The same requirements could be put in place for guns whether stored at home or carried in public. But I’m not from the USA so my thinking on this is completely different to yours. You probably are amazed at how difficult it is for me to own a firearm whereas I cannot comprehend why you think having so many of them are a good thing. Make it easy to get hold of weapons off the shelf that make killing quick, easy, clean, repeatable and risk free and no wonder you have so many deaths. You seem happy with that over there, no need to restrict them at all, nothing to see here, in fact if anything there are not enough guns around. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/28 "2018-02-23T22:49:17Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Another who agrees the Second Amendment is what is preventing serious gun regulation. Well, that and the fact that lots of voters would fight that regulation tooth and nail, but yes, the Second Amendment shouldn’t just be ignored as an inconvenient relic of the past. If we really wanted to make it difficult or even impossible to own a gun in this country, we could do that, but we should start with amending the Constitution to make that possible. > [@Novelty Bubble](#): > > You’ve just made my point for me. I think your point is becoming clearer. I think you actually mean “a gun is dangerous, both to you and to others, and as such should be regulated.” I’m not sure why it wouldn’t have been clearer to just say that, but there we are. The problem with “guns are like cars and should be regulated with similar schemes” as an argument is that (a) guns aren’t particularly like cars and (b) you don’t seem to want to treat them particularly like we treat cars. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/29 "2018-02-23T23:03:00Z")
[![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/4c604fb1818bc7459b7e0a13e39302ec.jpg) ](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/4c604fb1818bc7459b7e0a13e39302ec.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/30 "2018-02-23T23:11:02Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > I think your point is becoming clearer. I think you actually mean “a gun is dangerous, both to you and to others, and as such should be regulated.” I’m not sure why it wouldn’t have been clearer to just say that, but there we are. You didn’t need me to say that. Just like I didn’t need to say it about cars. > [@](#): > > The problem with “guns are like cars and should be regulated with similar schemes” as an argument is that (a) guns aren’t particularly like cars and (b) you don’t seem to want to treat them particularly like we treat cars. You might not want to put something in quotes that I never said. If you need a quote that you don’t need to make up try “guns have legitimate uses but also pose great risk to the public when misused, as such their ownership and use should be regulated” ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/31 "2018-02-23T23:13:49Z")
[![](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/8a06a24e38935e3a27f769bd21ee37fb.jpg) ](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/8a06a24e38935e3a27f769bd21ee37fb.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/32 "2018-02-23T23:29:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m not sure what your point is. Drive a car off your own property and onto the road and you run the risk of being checked and sanctioned in some way if your documents aren’t in order. Same as if we license off-your-property firearms and you take one off your property. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The same requirements could be put in place for guns whether stored at home or carried in public. We could do a lot of things; that does not mean we should. We license drivers – in an attempt to increase skill and to educate about the rules of the road – because operating a vehicle without any intent to harm is astoundingly dangerous. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see more restrictions on driving as autonomous vehicle technology develops. That level of danger simply does not exist for firearms. That said, requiring training might reduce the few accidents we do have and make people better shots. I haven’t seen any studies. Licensing drivers certainly seems to make for fewer accidents, according to unvetted [google search results](https://www.google.com/search?q=are+unlicensed+drivers+more+dangerous). _I_ certainly wouldn’t want to be carrying one around without some training. But I don’t know that it warrants a government licensing program. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But I’m not from the USA so my thinking on this is completely different to yours. You probably are amazed at how difficult it is for me to own a firearm whereas I cannot comprehend why you think having so many of them are a good thing. Make it easy to get hold of weapons off the shelf that make killing quick, easy, clean, repeatable and risk free and no wonder you have so many deaths. > > You seem happy with that over there, no need to restrict them at all, nothing to see here, in fact if anything there are not enough guns around. > > Whatever. I’ve never purchased a firearm and have no basis for comparison, let along amazement. I do, however, have some interest in rational risk assessment. And therefore I am not frightened of firearm violence. Driving on the DC beltway on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/33 "2018-02-23T23:59:45Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > This is why **septimus** ’s attempt to remove the federal government from the picture entirely, under the guise of “states’ right’s, y’all!” is so disingenuous. The following two positions are in no way contradictory:[ul][li]The federal government should have limited powers, and state government should have broader powers.[\*]The states should not have the power to arbitrarily strip away constitutionally guaranteed rights.[/ul][/li]So long as there is a federally protected right, the federal government must have a voice in attempts to curtail that right. Well, sure, but that voice of the federal government _could_ be limited to the Supreme Court enforcing the Constitution, and nothing further – which is what I interpreted the OP to be proposing. There’s no rule that Congress needs to pass any _additional_ laws to protect a Constitutional right more than it’s already protected by the Constitution. In some cases, they have done so, and often this was a good thing, because the Constitution on it’s own didn’t go far enough. (I’m thinking of Civil Rights laws, for example.) But it doesn’t follow that _every_ right needs stricter protections than those granted by the Constitution. For one thing, it depends on how much protection the Constitution already grants, which varies depending on the text of each Amendment and the caselaw built up around them over the years. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/34 "2018-02-24T00:00:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You didn’t need me to say that. Just like I didn’t need to say it about cars. Of course I need you to say that! You seem to think that I should read your mind and distill the essence of your oracular wisdom into a kernel of truth. But it’s not my place to develop your argument for you. I can only judge your argument on the basis of what you actually said, and what you actually said was “a gun at home for self-defence purposes is the equivalent of a car on the road.” If you don’t want to be misunderstood, perhaps you should try saying what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/35 "2018-02-24T00:09:24Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Another who agrees the Second Amendment is what is preventing serious gun regulation. Is it, though? Consider MEBuckner’s summary of the legal situation: > [@MEBuckner](#): > > The Supreme Court [has ruled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._City_of_Chicago) that states may not totally bar their own citizens from possessing firearms; nor even bar their own citizens from possessing handguns specifically. Thus far, the Supreme Court has declined to rule on the question of any right to carry a handgun in public, or on questions of “reciprocity” for citizens of other states who wish to carry outside their home state, nor have they ruled on the constitutionality of any sort of ban on “[assault weapons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon)”, let alone “[machine guns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act#Categories_of_firearms_regulated)”. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/36 "2018-02-24T00:28:39Z")
I clicked “Post” a bit too soon there, but what I was going to say was, basically, it’s quite possible that a state could _completely_ restrict guns to the home _and_ impose strict licensing requirements, and still not be found to be in violation of the 2nd Amendment. (Maybe with some exception for licensed “militias” outside the home, if we want to actually start taking that part of the 2nd Amendment seriously again.) I’m not trying to say they _should_ go that far; but if they haven’t yet tried to push those boundaries, then who knows how much of a barrier the 2nd Amendment really is? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/37 "2018-02-24T00:53:11Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I clicked “Post” a bit too soon there, but what I was going to say was, basically, it’s quite possible that a state could _completely_ restrict guns to the home _and_ impose strict licensing requirements, and still not be found to be in violation of the 2nd Amendment. (Maybe with some exception for licensed “militias” outside the home, if we want to actually start taking that part of the 2nd Amendment seriously again.) > > I’m not trying to say they _should_ go that far; but if they haven’t yet tried to push those boundaries, then who knows how much of a barrier the 2nd Amendment really is? Chicago tried to push those boundaries and lost in court: > [@](#): > > [The 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in December that it’s unconstitutional for Illinois to ban concealed carry. The court gave state officials until June 9 to rectify the shortfall, and later extended that by a month.](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/09/illinois-becomes-last-state-in-nation-to-allow-concealed-carry.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/38 "2018-02-24T01:16:44Z")
Probably the main reason we don’t have national drivers licenses is we don’t need to since the states have decided that for any normal use of a car, a license in any state is as good as any other state. Imagine if New York required me to get a New York drivers license in addition to my Minnesota license if I wanted to rent a car their. And yet we tolerate this situation with constitutional rights and the ability to defend yourself even if we don’t with something that’s a privilege and can’t be used to defend your life against criminals. If we regulated guns like cars, New York would gladly accept my Minnesota license. Nor do we set limits on engine displacement or fuel tank capacity on cars like we do fire rate or magazine capacity. With the proper license you can even drive a Mack truck down the road in any state in the union. Considering the minuscule odds of any given gun being used in a crime compared to a car in a crash, insurance will laughably cheap. Regulating guns like cars is starting to sound better all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/39 "2018-02-24T02:11:14Z")
[https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/343f66859e8c6d502118a288974d7c43.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/343f66859e8c6d502118a288974d7c43.jpg) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/40 "2018-02-24T02:40:50Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/4c604fb1818bc7459b7e0a13e39302ec.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/4c604fb1818bc7459b7e0a13e39302ec.jpg) > [@Biffster](#): > > [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/8a06a24e38935e3a27f769bd21ee37fb.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/8a06a24e38935e3a27f769bd21ee37fb.jpg) > [@Biffster](#): > > [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/343f66859e8c6d502118a288974d7c43.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/343f66859e8c6d502118a288974d7c43.jpg) > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This isn’t imgur. Stop with drive by image links. If you have something to say, do so. [/moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393.md?page=3)