# Resolved: My gun-safety plan is smarter than Trump's **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393 "2018-02-23T04:48:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/41 "2018-02-24T03:05:42Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This isn’t imgur. … Understatement of the year. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/42 "2018-02-24T03:41:49Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Well, sure, but that voice of the federal government _could_ be limited to the Supreme Court enforcing the Constitution, and nothing further – which is what I interpreted the OP to be proposing. There’s no rule that Congress needs to pass any _additional_ laws to protect a Constitutional right more than it’s already protected by the Constitution. In some cases, they have done so, and often this was a good thing, because the Constitution on it’s own didn’t go far enough. (I’m thinking of Civil Rights laws, for example.) But it doesn’t follow that _every_ right needs stricter protections than those granted by the Constitution. For one thing, it depends on how much protection the Constitution already grants, which varies depending on the text of each Amendment and the caselaw built up around them over the years. I missed this. I don’t disagree. But I’m not proposing that Congress do anything. Rather, I am proposing that it is possible to sincerely believe in “states’ rights” and _also_ sincerely believe that the states do not have the right to deny what you believe the Constitution explicitly guarantees. The OP apparently disagrees, here: > [@septimus](#): > > “Conservative” hypocrisy — pretending to believe in states’ rights but actually wanting to impose the NRA agenda on blue states — will be exposed as insincere prattle. If you are, for example, a Californian who believes that the state of California is making it unduly difficult to exercise what you believe to be your Second Amendment rights, it is entirely proper to turn to the federal government in the form of the federal courts for relief. And it is not necessarily hypocritical for you to do so and yet hold that the federal government should not be involved in, say, regulating medical marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/43 "2018-02-24T09:10:38Z")
> [@g8rguy](#): > > what you actually said was “a gun at home for self-defence purposes is the equivalent of a car on the road.” what I actually said…the words I used…the context…you know, \*the meaning \* was > [@](#): > > The regulations should seek to cover the normal scope of usage of an item. A gun at home for self-defence purposes is the equivalent of a car on the road. > There are legal restrictions on the installation of gas boilers and electrical wiring in private houses because that is where they are normally used. Which seems to me to be perfectly clear. > [@](#): > > If you don’t want to be misunderstood, perhaps you should try saying what you mean. If you don’t want to risk misunderstanding or seek to mislead others try reading and quoting what I actually do say. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/44 "2018-02-24T09:48:57Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/343f66859e8c6d502118a288974d7c43.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180224/343f66859e8c6d502118a288974d7c43.jpg) The problem with this argument of course is that many conservatives will choose “give everyone a stick” and feel it’s the sensible solution. Since the OP is addressing Trump’s idea of saving school children, I’m not sure any new gun laws will help for a very long time. This country is awash with firearms, the genie is out of the bottle. Gun laws won’t stop disturbed people from getting them and using them. While I own guns and feel safer with one in my home, I do think we need better gun laws. I have no problem with much tighter regulations much along the lines of the OP but I doubt it will stop lone nuts from aquiring a gun and killing schoolchildren. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/45 "2018-02-24T09:56:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Same as if we license off-your-property firearms and you take one off your property. Sorry, I think we’ve circled right round on that train of thought and I can’t reconstruct the chain of thinking. Perhaps we’ll leave that there. > [@](#): > > We could do a lot of things; that does not mean we should. We license drivers – in an attempt to increase skill and to educate about the rules of the road – because operating a vehicle without any intent to harm is astoundingly dangerous. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see more restrictions on driving as autonomous vehicle technology develops. That level of danger simply does not exist for firearms. I think once the greater safety of autonomous vehicles becomes apparent we will see insurance companies restrict behaviour through the means of higher premiums. That in turn could drive (ha!) people to change what, how and when they drive. In the future if you choose to manually drive on the motorways when autonomous mode is safer you will be on the hook for massive damages in the event of a crash or massive premiums beforehand. You may be required to take greater in-depth training etc. There is no doubt that vehicle _ **deaths** _ are about 3x higher than gun _ **homicides** _ but both are certainly high enough to warrant attention and concern. As it stands there is, has been and will continue to be a push towards understanding the reasons behind road death and greater road safety. Air bags, seat belts, fender heights, lights, tread depths, emissions, road surfaces, junction designs, signage etc. etc. Have there been any equivalent moves towards firearm safety? Is there even any attempt to consider it? > [@](#): > > That said, requiring training might reduce the few accidents we do have and make people better shots. I haven’t seen any studies. Licensing drivers certainly seems to make for fewer accidents, according to unvetted [google search results](https://www.google.com/search?q=are+unlicensed+drivers+more+dangerous). _I_ certainly wouldn’t want to be carrying one around without some training. But I don’t know that it warrants a government licensing program. I don’t think anyone will truly know until it is tried. I suggest that mandatory training, licensing, insurance and security measures for all guns owned would have a cooling effect on the numbers, types and usage of guns and, possibly more importantly, send a societal and cultural message. > [@](#): > > I’ve never purchased a firearm and have no basis for comparison, let along amazement. I do, however, have some interest in rational risk assessment. And therefore I am not frightened of firearm violence. Driving on the DC beltway on the other hand… You should not be overly frightened of either. The risks remain low for both. However, society does itself no favours if it ignores the opportunities for reducing avoidable deaths. Even worse if it stops the question even being asked. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/46 "2018-02-24T12:05:53Z")
I guess my ignorance has been demonstrated in this thread. _ **Which makes it all the more remarkable that my plan is much smarter than Trump’s.** _ I hope rational Americans seize on Trump’s obvious stupidity to educate the American public on how utterly he (and by extension all those who support him) are. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There is no doubt that vehicle _ **deaths** _ are about 3x higher than gun _ **homicides** _ but both are certainly high enough to warrant attention and concern… _ **Wow!** _ Many Americans spend a significant portion of their lives in automobiles or even on dangerous motorcycles. Yet they kill only thrice as many as guns? That statistic should sober up gun enthusiasts. If we all spent several hours per day fondling our weapons and firing at things that would be one thing, but we don’t. I’ve not fired a non-toy gun since my father took me practicing many decades ago. I’ve never seen a gun brandished in anger. I spent decades in California but the only guy I knew who carried a gun was the bridge player we laughed at for his “surrogate penis.” Yet guns kill fully one-third as many as traffic??? _ **Wow!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/47 "2018-02-24T14:13:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Many Americans spend a significant portion of their lives in automobiles or even on dangerous motorcycles. Yet they kill only thrice as many as guns? just to be clear, because facts are important, those approximate figures compare _ **all** _ road deaths with _ **just the homicides** _ by firearms, which I think is an important distinction. The most recent figures I can find show [37k](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year)fatalities on the roads for 2016. For firearms deaths there seems to be some around [10.5 per 100k of population (as of 2012](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate)), so around 34k in total. Almost exactly the same as road deaths. That contains suicides as well so the actual number of homicides is 3.6 per 100k so 11.7k in total. So yes, just under a third. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/48 "2018-02-24T14:28:37Z")
Right. Gun accidents are only like 500-1000, depending on the year. So that’s why we have so much effort to reduce accidental harm to self and others with vehicles, but not firearms. That’s why we license driving. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/49 "2018-02-24T15:26:01Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Right. Gun accidents are only like 500-1000, depending on the year. So that’s why we have so much effort to reduce accidental harm to self and others with vehicles, but not firearms. That’s why we license driving. That is an absolute gem, beyond parody. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/50 "2018-02-24T15:43:51Z")
Not at all. The point of licensing is to reduce accidents. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/51 "2018-02-24T15:56:12Z")
Despite the never-ending stream of new ways to get yourself prematurely killed, it is currently much safer to go out in public than at any time in history in all but a very few obvious exceptions like Syria, for example. This is what they do when kids attend schoool - they go out in public. “Real” safety and security is an illusion existing on a spectrum from holed up in a bomb shelter (pretty secure) to walking point on a U.S. Army patrol somewhere in the Stan (good chance of getting killed). Everywhere in between you are more or less likely to be killed by either some accidental or intentional act of violence, random or otherwise. That’s just life. Or death, for the unlucky. Although something very similar happens multiple times every weekend across the country, I can’t remember the last time a drunk driver ran head-on into a family of four killing every occupant in the crash, followed by media-fanned outrage demanding tighter driving control or banning vehicles. That is because almost everyone uses cars and they are not feared as weapons of mass murder, notwithstanding their growing popularity amongst extremist terror operators. Terrorists have recognized how dangerous an easily accessible a rental truck can be to a large group of pedestrians, compared to the difficulty and risk of oganizing and deploying conventional weapons for a terror attack. This discussion needs to be about security and mental health, nothing else. Nothng changes until that is recognized and addressed. People who do not understand this will continue being disappointed about the situation. It is a totally irrational fear considering how small a danger guns actually are compared to the many other ways you can get killed while out in public. All we need is media hype to keep the chorus of scared sheep at peak crescendo, which accomplishes exactly nothing for the cause. It only creates an inordinate level of confusion and partisan bickering, clouding the real issue(s). Unlike suicide by vehicle (a not un-common phenomenon), suicide by firearm (excluding the murder-suicide combo) doesn’t typically take other innocents with it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/52 "2018-02-24T16:05:05Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Not at all. The point of licensing is to reduce accidents. So, the 33,000 deaths by firearms that aren’t officially designated as accidents are fine? not a problem? just guns doing what they are supposed to do? Not something to worry about? Presumably if we could eliminate those 500-1000 accidents and increase the number of purposeful deaths that would be a good thing? I guess by your logic the 17 deaths in Florida (that’s last week’s shooting) and the 50+ in Vegas were not accidents? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/53 "2018-02-24T16:45:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So, the 33,000 deaths by firearms that aren’t officially designated as accidents are fine? not a problem? just guns doing what they are supposed to do? Not something to worry about? Presumably if we could eliminate those 500-1000 accidents and increase the number of purposeful deaths that would be a good thing? > > I guess by your logic the 17 deaths in Florida (that’s last week’s shooting) and the 50+ in Vegas were not accidents? Nobody has called those deaths fine or not a problem. We license drivers to prevent accidents. To get that license I need to show that I can operate a vehicle and that I am familiar with traffic laws. If I want to operate that vehicle with murderous or suicidal intent, that license does diddly. Likewise with a firearm. You are looking at all firearm deaths and applying a regulatory instrument that addresses a very small subset that isn’t even a major cause of accidental death and injury. At the expense of paying attention to actual risks. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/54 "2018-02-24T17:03:24Z")
Most people do not realize they are far more likely to die at the hands of a healthcare professional, than from a firearm discharge - from a purely risk analysis standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/55 "2018-02-24T18:21:31Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You are looking at all firearm deaths and applying a regulatory instrument that addresses a very small subset that isn’t even a major cause of accidental death and injury. At the expense of paying attention to actual risks. The regulation would not be primarily aimed at reducing accidental death (though it would…the lives of hundreds of people are not to be sniffed at). My reasons for wanting regulations in place would be to reduce the number of guns overall. It would become so expensive and difficult to own and carry guns that fewer people would do it. When something is being used for it’s intended purpose and killing tens of thousands of people a year then stronger regulation seems sensible. Cars are inherently utilitarian and incidentally dangerous, Guns have far greater inherent danger, indeed their whole utility is to cause damage and death, why you would regulate the former more than the latter seems bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/56 "2018-02-24T18:22:52Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Most people do not realize they are far more likely to die at the hands of a healthcare professional, than from a firearm discharge - from a purely risk analysis standpoint. How heavily regulated is the healthcare industry? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/57 "2018-02-24T18:29:23Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Despite the never-ending stream of new ways to get yourself prematurely killed, it is currently much safer to go out in public than at any time in history in all but a very few obvious exceptions like Syria, for example. This is what they do when kids attend schoool - they go out in public. “Real” safety and security is an illusion existing on a spectrum from holed up in a bomb shelter (pretty secure) to walking point on a U.S. Army patrol somewhere in the Stan (good chance of getting killed). Everywhere in between you are more or less likely to be killed by either some accidental or intentional act of violence, random or otherwise. That’s just life. Or death, for the unlucky. “Gee, I’m sorry your teenager died in a mass school shooting. But that’s life.” Say that to a grieving parent and count the number of teeth you get to keep. It ain’t going to wash with the other students there, either. Classic conservative position, though. “It doesn’t impact my life, so why should I care?” > [@](#): > > Although something very similar happens multiple times every weekend across the country, I can’t remember the last time a drunk driver ran head-on into a family of four killing every occupant in the crash, followed by media-fanned outrage demanding tighter driving control or banning vehicles. That is because almost everyone uses cars and they are not feared as weapons of mass murder, notwithstanding their growing popularity amongst extremist terror operators. Terrorists have recognized how dangerous an easily accessible a rental truck can be to a large group of pedestrians, compared to the difficulty and risk of oganizing and deploying conventional weapons for a terror attack. Deliberately missing the point that cars have actual utility. Unless you’re living in a shack in the Adirondacks, you don’t need a gun. > [@](#): > > This discussion needs to be about security and mental health, nothing else. Nothng changes until that is recognized and addressed. People who do not understand this will continue being disappointed about the situation. It is a totally irrational fear considering how small a danger guns actually are compared to the many other ways you can get killed while out in public. All we need is media hype to keep the chorus of scared sheep at peak crescendo, which accomplishes exactly nothing for the cause. It only creates an inordinate level of confusion and partisan bickering, clouding the real issue(s). Funny how that’s the position that the NRA always takes. Let’s just forget about those lethal weapons. Let’s talk about something else instead. > [@](#): > > Unlike suicide by vehicle (a not un-common phenomenon), suicide by firearm (excluding the murder-suicide combo) doesn’t typically take other innocents with it. Cite away how common that phenomenon really is. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/58 "2018-02-24T18:33:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Cite away how common that phenomenon really is. I am only personally aware of two people I knew (one a close friend), so I have no legitimate cite for that, in this context. The fact it happens at all is probably of equal relevance to the fact that mass murder in our schools happens at all, from a statistical standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/59 "2018-02-24T18:46:09Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > I am only personally aware of two people I knew (one a close friend), so I have no legitimate cite for that, in this context. Oddly enough, I don’t know or know of anyone who’s committed suicide by car. Out of curiosity, how exactly do you even know that it was suicide? > [@](#): > > The fact it happens at all is probably of equal relevance to the fact that mass murder in our schools happens at all, from a statistical standpoint. Yet you have no statistics. Uh, OK… ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393/60 "2018-02-24T18:58:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Oddly enough, I don’t know or know of anyone who’s committed suicide by car. Out of curiosity, how exactly do you even know that it was suicide? 911 transcripts of the phone calls immediately prior to and during the crash were pretty convincing on the old HS acquaintance example. The good friend example was not so easy, but the circumstances and a general consensus among family and friends was as conclusive as that one was ever going to get. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Yet you have no statistics. Uh, OK… Nope. You win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-my-gun-safety-plan-is-smarter-than-trumps/809393.md?page=4)