# Resolved: Police is effectively abolished **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408 "2020-06-10T21:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/1 "2020-06-10T21:50:06Z")
I’ve not yet heard a precise definition of what people mean by “abolish” when they talk about abolishing the police. For the sake of this discussion, let us assume the dictionary definition: Abolish (verb): formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution). Do these seem to be reasonable assumptions? - general lawlessness with respect to petty crime, traffic violations, DUI, burglary/theft, looting - gun owners taking law into their own hands to protect their property, resulting in rise of gun violence - decline of fire and ambulance emergency service due to lack of security - general atmosphere of fear in public spaces - negative economic impact on various businesses - reduction in large organized public events - impact on traffic and road maintenance - further erosion of public trust in government institutions - failure of institutional gov’t ability to enforce laws - creation of private police forces - further decline in policing in poor/disadvantaged neighborhoods - rise in organized crime What do you anticipate to be the foreseeable short and medium term consequences? What segment of society is likely to suffer the worst effects? Or do you think this is an overreaction? Will quality of life of all citizens improve overall? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/2 "2020-06-10T21:55:46Z")
I agree with your list if the police were disbanded. Except for this: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > - gun owners taking law into their own hands to protect their property, resulting in rise of gun violence This would simply be a rise in positive gun stories, not a rise in gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/3 "2020-06-10T22:12:05Z")
Tru dat. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/4 "2020-06-10T22:21:10Z")
The most reasonable assumption I have regarding the abolishment of the police is that it would soon be replaced by an alternate policing organization, which conveniently would not have any relationship with police unions. If the local governments didn’t establish such an organization, the local criminals would. It’s probably worth noting that there’s no guarantee that the new policing organization would any less murderous or corrupt than the current organization. (Particularly if we wait for one to emerge on its own.) ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/5 "2020-06-11T02:53:26Z")
Perhaps something like what [Camden, New Jersey](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department?utm_source=pocket-newtab) did, " So in 2013, the mayor and city council dissolved the local PD and signed an agreement for the county to provide shared services. " I believe the thought is that the rot has spread throughout many police departments, and applying patches or small changes won’t fix the problem, so the diseased existing organizational structure needs to be dissolved entirely and the useful parts of its functionality replaced with new organizational structure(s). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/6 "2020-06-11T03:11:48Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > Perhaps something like what [Camden, New Jersey](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department?utm_source=pocket-newtab) did, " So in 2013, the mayor and city council dissolved the local PD and signed an agreement for the county to provide shared services. " > > I believe the thought is that the rot has spread throughout many police departments, and applying patches or small changes won’t fix the problem, so the diseased existing organizational structure needs to be dissolved entirely and the useful parts of its functionality replaced with new organizational structure(s). QFT, there is indeed a huge middle there in the OPs argument, so big that he leaves big ideas like what was done before in the US and leaves Harm Reduction out of the picture. > **[Police & Harm Reduction](https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/publications/police-harm-reduction)** > > This report showcases alternatives to common punitive policing models and presents recommendations on how to incorporate harm reduction approaches that aim to increase public safety, public health, and public confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/7 "2020-06-11T04:05:46Z")
Without police: Massive increase in gun ownership as everyone realizes they’re on their own. Cities and regions split into many tiny little enclaves of neighborhood watches each watching after their own. Super high crime rate. Foreign investment, tourism, students, immigration drastically decreased due to the spiraling violence and chaos. Economy goes down the tubes. Schools stop functioning because parents dare not let their kids out of sight anymore. Business would cease to function because you can’t stop rampant looters or fraudsters. Most ironically for black Americans, they would be getting murdered by white supremacists and others at far higher rates than before such police abolition ever happened. Black lives would now matter even less, not more. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/8 "2020-06-11T04:09:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Most ironically for black Americans, they would be getting murdered by white supremacists and others at far higher rates than before such police abolition ever happened. Black lives would now matter even less, not more. I’m interested in why you would think that black Americans would be getting murdered at far higher rates? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/9 "2020-06-11T04:19:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Super high crime rate. As noted, complete abolition will not take place, but even this point is not obligated to follow “common sence” > **[In New York, major crime complaints fell when cops took a break from...](https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html)** > > When New York police officers temporarily reduced their “proactive policing” efforts on low-level offenses, major-crime reports in the city actually fell, according to a study based on New York Police Department crime statistics. > [@](#): > > During the slowdown, the researchers found that police dramatically reduced the number of criminal summonses and SQFs — a confirmation that, indeed, the low-level proactive policing activities had gone down. Non-major crime arrests also took a dip. So did narcotics arrests. > > So, with the drop in relatively low-level police activity, what happened to serious crime in the city? The scientists found that civilian complaints of major crimes dropped by about 3% to 6% during the slowdown. > > “The cessation of proactive policing corresponds roughly to the relative decline in crime that earlier research attributed to the effects of mass incarceration,” the authors noted. > > The researchers ran the analysis under a couple other models, and the results still held. They examined whether crime underreporting could have biased the findings, and the results still held. > > “While we cannot entirely rule out the effects of under-reporting,” the authors wrote, “our results show that crime complaints decreased, rather than increased, during a slowdown in proactive policing, contrary to deterrence theory.” > > Each week during the slowdown saw civilians report an estimated 43 fewer felony assaults, 40 fewer burglaries and 40 fewer acts of grand larceny. And this slight suppression of major crime rates actually continued for seven to 14 weeks after those drops in proactive policing — which led the researchers to estimate that overall, the slowdown resulted in about 2,100 fewer major-crimes complaints. > > The broken windows theory posits that fighting smaller crimes helps to prevent the larger ones. But in this case, it seems that the opposite may have been true. > > “In their efforts to increase civilian compliance, certain policing tactics may inadvertently contribute to serious criminal activity,” the researchers wrote. “The implications for understanding policing in a democratic society should not be understated.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/10 "2020-06-11T04:31:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m interested in why you would think that black Americans would be getting murdered at far higher rates? With no police, any white supremacist who previously wanted to kill blacks but refrained from doing so can now consider it open season. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/11 "2020-06-11T04:34:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > With no police, any white supremacist who previously wanted to kill blacks but refrained from doing so can now consider it open season. With no police, you don’t think that black Americans would protect themselves more than they do now? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/12 "2020-06-11T12:05:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > QFT, there is indeed a huge middle there in the OPs argument, so big that he leaves big ideas like what was done before in the US and leaves Harm Reduction out of the picture. > > [Police & Harm Reduction - Open Society Foundations](https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/publications/police-harm-reduction) Okay, let’s use Camden as an example. One relatively small geographic area taking a bold step in reforming (not abolishing, mind you) their police department. A dramatic action taken in a limited area with surrounding jurisdictions of general social peace and order. Now, blow it up to a national scale. How do you see it playing out? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/13 "2020-06-11T12:07:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > With no police, you don’t think that black Americans would protect themselves more than they do now? Of course they would. But white supremacists, as history shows, are rarely content just keeping to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/14 "2020-06-11T12:47:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay, let’s use Camden as an example. One relatively small geographic area taking a bold step in reforming (not abolishing, mind you) their police department. A dramatic action taken in a limited area with surrounding jurisdictions of general social peace and order. Now, blow it up to a national scale. How do you see it playing out? Already did, it is really sad that you are ignoring the point I have made many times before, me and others do not think that it must be blow up to a national scale, just specific locations. So besides arguing from ignorance what you point here is a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/15 "2020-06-11T12:54:16Z")
I can tell you one thing that would definitely happen if the police were abolished: Donald Trump would win the 2020 election in a landslide the likes of which America has never seen before, and will never see again. This whole thing is an absolute gift to Trump and the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/16 "2020-06-11T13:07:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Already did, it is really sad that you are ignoring the point I have made many times before, me and others do not think that it must be blow up to a national scale, just specific locations. So besides arguing from ignorance what you point here is a straw man. This is just pithy enough to make it look as if you’ve cleared up a giant misunderstanding on my part. Except that you haven’t. From my point of view, the problem with police and law enforcement is massively broken on a national scale. Now you say, it’s just a matter of abolishment in some unspecified number of locations. Fine. Which ones and how do you envision that working? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/17 "2020-06-11T13:59:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This is just pithy enough to make it look as if you’ve cleared up a giant misunderstanding on my part. Except that you haven’t. > > From my point of view, the problem with police and law enforcement is massively broken on a national scale. Now you say, it’s just a matter of abolishment in some unspecified number of locations. Fine. Which ones and how do you envision that working? They say that asking the question is to answer it already, one is the very same one the discussion is about, as in Minneapolis. > **[Minneapolis lawmakers vow to disband police department in historic move](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd)** > > City council members declare intent to ‘abolish’ embattled agency and replace with alternative model in wake of George Floyd’s killing > [@](#): > > The Minneapolis city council has pledged to disband the city’s police department and replace it with a new system of public safety, a historic move that comes as calls to defund law enforcement are sweeping the US. > > Speaking at a community rally on Sunday, a veto-proof majority of council members declared their intent to “dismantle” and “abolish” the embattled police agency responsible for George Floyd’s death – and build an alternative model of community-led safety. The decision is a direct response to the massive protests that have taken over American cities in the last two weeks, and is a major victory for abolitionist activists who have long fought to disband police and prisons. > > “In Minneapolis and in cities across the US, it is clear that our system of policing is not keeping our communities safe,” said Lisa Bender, the Minneapolis city council president, at the event. “Our efforts at incremental reform have failed, period. Our commitment is to do what’s necessary to keep every single member of our community safe and to tell the truth: that the Minneapolis police are not doing that. Our commitment is to end policing as we know it and to recreate systems of public safety that actually keep us safe.” > > Nine council members announced their support and represent a supermajority on the 12-person council, meaning the mayor, who earlier this weekend opposed disbanding the department, cannot override them. The remaining three council members are broadly supportive of the effort as well, but were not ready to sign on, activists said. While the mayor has oversight over the police, the city council has authority over the budget and policy, and could work to dismantle the department through cuts and ordinances. > > The formal effort to abolish a major-city police department in America and replace it with a different model of safety would have been almost unthinkable even weeks ago and is a testament to the impact of the protests that began with Floyd’s death on 25 May. The unarmed 46-year-old was killed by Minneapolis police when an officer kneeled on his neck for nearly nine minutes as he pleaded for him to stop. Four officers now face criminal charges. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/18 "2020-06-11T14:04:22Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I can tell you one thing that would definitely happen if the police were abolished: Donald Trump would win the 2020 election in a landslide the likes of which America has never seen before, and will never see again. This whole thing is an absolute gift to Trump and the Republicans. Using basic American civics logic, that is not so clear. Anything that resembles an abolishing all over the USA needs the signature of congress and the president. If we are just insisting into going for unlikely hypotheticals I will have to say that getting that from the senate and Trump is not likely to be a gift for Trump and the Republicans as they will have to be willful participants on a reckless “one size fits all” solution. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/19 "2020-06-11T14:23:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Using basic American civics logic, that is not so clear. > > Anything that resembles an abolishing all over the USA needs the signature of congress and the president. If we are just insisting into going for unlikely hypotheticals I will have to say that getting that from the senate and Trump is not likely to be a gift for Trump and the Republicans as they will have to be willful participants on a reckless “one size fits all” solution. All it’ll need is for a few blue cities in a few blue states to _say_ they’re abolishing/defunding the police. Trump, Fox, and the Republicans will do the rest. Remember Willie Horton. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/20 "2020-06-11T14:40:47Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > All it’ll need is for a few blue cities in a few blue states to _say_ they’re abolishing/defunding the police. Trump, Fox, and the Republicans will do the rest. Remember Willie Horton. Uh, that is not what I replied to, your hypothetical declared the abolition as a done deal all other the USA, and that is not viable indeed, so what is left is to move the goalposts to this one. IMHO there is a lot of reasons to do it in places like Minneapolis and other locations. That Trump and the Republicans will not do so in many red areas that do need reform leads me to think that it is more likely to me that those red areas will turn blue then. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408.md?page=2)