# Resolved: Police is effectively abolished **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408 "2020-06-10T21:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/21 "2020-06-11T14:42:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > They say that asking the question is to answer it already, one is the very same one the discussion is about, as in Minneapolis. > > [Minneapolis lawmakers vow to disband police department in historic move | US policing | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd) Forgive my pedantry here. But with the exception of the four cops who were charged with the crime, it sounds like all the other cops, from senior to rank and file, are going to continue to perform their job in the same capacity. So this seems much more like “Reform” than “Abolish” or “Dismantle”. In fact, until we see some actual change, it sounds like a lot of lip service being paid. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/22 "2020-06-11T14:46:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Forgive my pedantry here. But with the exception of the four cops who were charged with the crime, it sounds like all the other cops, from senior to rank and file, are going to continue to perform their job in the same capacity. So this seems much more like “Reform” than “Abolish” or “Dismantle”. In fact, until we see some actual change, it sounds like a lot of lip service being paid. Nowhere did I say that other cops would be out of a job. Again, that is a straw man, no need to ask for forgiveness to me, only to logic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/23 "2020-06-11T14:51:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ve not yet heard a precise definition of what people mean by “abolish” when they talk about abolishing the police. For the sake of this discussion, let us assume the dictionary definition: > > Abolish (verb): formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution). > > Do these seem to be reasonable assumptions? > > - general lawlessness with respect to petty crime, traffic violations, DUI, burglary/theft, looting… “To put an end to” is too vague to mean anything. “Put an end to a system” can mean an infinite number of scenarios. Again, NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THERE BE NO LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL AT ALL. Anyone who says that’;s the idea is either not paying attention or is a Fox News liar. Your list of scary, scary ideas is based entirely on a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/24 "2020-06-11T14:56:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nowhere did I say that other cops would be out of a job. Again, that is a straw man, no need to ask for forgiveness to me, only to logic. 🙂 So what exactly is being abolished here? Not the actual cops. Not their general attitude about policing. Not the structural chain of command, except perhaps a few police chiefs. I sure hope this isn’t more of the same happy talk about “Abolishing Abusive Police Practices” by establishing a new review committee. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/25 "2020-06-11T15:02:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “To put an end to” is too vague to mean anything. “Put an end to a system” can mean an infinite number of scenarios. > > Again, NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THERE BE NO LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL AT ALL. Anyone who says that’;s the idea is either not paying attention or is a Fox News liar. Your list of scary, scary ideas is based entirely on a straw man. Good. We agree. Abolishing the Police is an absurd idea. Let’s just get on with some much needed and substantive “Police REFORM” ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/26 "2020-06-11T15:05:37Z")
> [@GigoBuster](#): > > Uh, that is not what I replied to, your hypothetical declared the abolition as a done deal all other the USA, and that is not viable indeed, so what is left is to move the goalposts to this one. Okay, but it makes no difference. Abolish the police in even one city and that’ll be enough. Trump and the Republicans will point to that and say _“See? This is just the beginning. Vote Democrat and they’ll do the same to your town.”_ They’ll scaremonger, and it’ll work, because scaremongering nearly always does. Again, remember Willie Horton. It’ll be that, times a thousand. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/27 "2020-06-11T15:07:25Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Okay, but it makes no difference. Abolish the police in even one city and that’ll be enough. Trump and the Republicans will point to that and say _“See? This is just the beginning. Vote Democrat and they’ll do the same to your town.”_ They’ll scaremonger, and it’ll work, because scaremongering nearly always does. Again, remember Willie Horton. It’ll be that, times a thousand. Politically speaking, I do see your point, but it is not such an absolute when one realizes that the explanations make more sense coming from the ones demanding reform while the ones getting the “gift” of keeping the status quo sound unhinged and they do seem to think that telling minorities or poor Americans that it is raining and that that is not pee will fly. The “business as usual” guys are really making less sense when Trump has gone hard authoritarian and 100% tone deaf. > **[Trump Has Gone Full Authoritarian](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/trump-has-gone-full-authoritarian.html)** > > His first term reaches a violent crescendo. > [@](#): > > A little more than a year ago, President Trump made one of the most terrifying and prophetic statements of his presidency. “You know, the left plays a tougher game; it’s very funny. I actually think that the people on the right are tougher, but they don’t play it tougher,” he told Breitbart. “I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump. I have the tough people, but they don’t play it tough — until they go to a certain point and then it would be very bad, very bad.” > > There are two remarkable things about this statement. One is Trump’s casual conflation of the state security forces (police, military) with extremely unofficial political activists (“Bikers for Trump”). In his mind, they all blur together as a kind of private militia. The second is his view of violence as an extension of politics. The context of his statement was congressional oversight of his administration. The passage immediately following his threat to unleash bloodshed was “But the left plays it cuter and tougher. Like with all the nonsense that they do in Congress … you know, they do things that are nasty.” His mind moves seamlessly between peaceful, constitutional functions and violent repression, observing no demarcation. > > Trump may not have been revealing a plan, exactly, but he was certainly revealing a general intention. The political conflict he has never stopped stoking would reach “a certain point.” Trump did not know what it would be. It turned out to be national demonstrations over the police murder of George Floyd and the culture of racism that allowed it, which created an atmosphere that Trump took as a personal humiliation. And now observe his prediction coming true: The response is very, very bad. > > Trump’s view of the police as the armed wing of the MAGA movement is reasonably well founded. A 2017 Pew survey asked if this country “needs to continue making changes to give blacks equal rights with whites.” While 54 percent of white people agreed, only 6 percent of white police officers did. Investigations by government agencies and reporters have found deep links between networks of white police officers and anti-Islamist, pro-Confederate, or openly white-supremacist groups. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/28 "2020-06-11T15:12:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So what exactly is being abolished here? Not the actual cops. Not their general attitude about policing. Not the structural chain of command, except perhaps a few police chiefs. > > I sure hope this isn’t more of the same happy talk about “Abolishing Abusive Police Practices” by establishing a new review committee. Did you really read what was done in the places where reform took place? A lot of what the police was doing was taken away from them as harm reduction and other items come in. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/29 "2020-06-11T15:30:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m interested in why you would think that black Americans would be getting murdered at far higher rates? > [@Velocity](#): > > With no police, any white supremacist who previously wanted to kill blacks but refrained from doing so can now consider it open season. Velocity you got it wrong, as far as the cause. Majority of murders of black people in the US are from other black people. The source of this is primarily the high rate of black people below the poverty level. With no law enforcement and no increase in the standard of living for black people, their murder rate would increase. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/30 "2020-06-11T15:34:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Did you really read what was done in the places where reform took place? A lot of what the police was doing was taken away from them as harm reduction and other items come in. The Guardian article you linked was a bit vague, tbh. I clicked through to this link: [What we are talking about when we talk about a “Police-free Future”.](https://www.mpd150.com/what-are-we-talking-about-when-we-talk-about-a-police-free-future/) I agree with some of the ideas it puts forward and not quite sure of some others because they don’t appear to be fully thought out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/31 "2020-06-11T16:19:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The Guardian article you linked was a bit vague, tbh. I clicked through to this link: [What we are talking about when we talk about a “Police-free Future”.](https://www.mpd150.com/what-are-we-talking-about-when-we-talk-about-a-police-free-future/) > > I agree with some of the ideas it puts forward and not quite sure of some others because they don’t appear to be fully thought out. It sounds that you are reaching for perfect solutions so as to dismiss the good ones. But that is fair, just do not forget that as they say it: “check out the readings recommended” in the article from MPD 150. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/32 "2020-06-11T16:37:19Z")
So, am I the first one to point out that the OP isn’t using “Resolved:” correctly? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/33 "2020-06-11T16:43:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, am I the first one to point out that the OP isn’t using “Resolved:” correctly? Was being cheeky. Of course it’s not resolved. Just wanted to spark conversation about what “Abolished” looked like for those who supported the idea. The MPD150 article is one take I had not considered and which is quite different to the scenario I provided. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/34 "2020-06-11T16:52:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Was being cheeky. Of course it’s not resolved. It seems that you’re using the word incorrectly here too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/35 "2020-06-11T17:03:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, am I the first one to point out that the OP isn’t using “Resolved:” correctly? > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > It seems that you’re using the word incorrectly here too. 😃 I’ve been whoooshed. Now tell me how. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/36 "2020-06-11T17:08:21Z")
No whooshing, just gentle ribbing, and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that the blame may lie in my interpretation. You said “Of course it’s not resolved.” To me, that implies use of the word “resolved” preceding a debate title implies something has already been resolved. That’s not what “resolved” means in that context. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/37 "2020-06-11T17:51:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Using basic American civics logic, that is not so clear. > > Anything that resembles an abolishing all over the USA needs the signature of congress and the president. If we are just insisting into going for unlikely hypotheticals I will have to say that getting that from the senate and Trump is not likely to be a gift for Trump and the Republicans as they will have to be willful participants on a reckless “one size fits all” solution. I really don’t think Trump or Congress have anything to say about it, other than maybe some grant funding. The federal government has no say in how local (state and smaller) agencies work. They can neither create nor dissolve nor mandate local police departments. States’ Rights and all that. I do think its pretty clear that the right wing benefits from all this. Its fear mongering at its finest. “The Dems want to abolish the police! Choas! Death! Your women and children are in danger! Vote Republican” I approve of this message - DJT, Your Law & Order President and Savior. Its not a reach, at all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/38 "2020-06-11T17:54:34Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > No whooshing, just gentle ribbing, and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that the blame may lie in my interpretation. > > You said “Of course it’s not resolved.” To me, that implies use of the word “resolved” preceding a debate title implies something has already been resolved. That’s not what “resolved” means in that context. Oh, see, whenever I read threads that start with “Resolved:\_\_\_\_”, I immediately assume the opposite. That the OP is submitting a hypothesis that may seem compelling, and is looking for challenge/falsification. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/39 "2020-06-11T18:47:13Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > To me, that implies use of the word “resolved” preceding a debate title implies something has already been resolved. That’s not what “resolved” means in that context. You apparently never participated in debate in school. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408/40 "2020-06-11T18:50:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Oh, see, whenever I read threads that start with “Resolved:\_\_\_\_”, I immediately assume the opposite. That the OP is submitting a hypothesis that may seem compelling, and is looking for challenge/falsification. Yes, what I meant to say was “You said ‘Of course it’s not resolved.’ To me, that implies _that you think_ use of the word ‘resolved’ preceding a debate title implies something has already been resolved. That’s not what ‘resolved’ means in that context.” > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You apparently never participated in debate in school. What’s apparent to you is wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-police-is-effectively-abolished/855408.md?page=3)