# Resolved: Suicide should be considered when discussing gun in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081 "2020-06-05T00:34:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/1 "2020-06-05T00:34:50Z")
I know, I know, we’ve been here and done this a million times on the SDMB. However, some new evidence has come to light which I think should allow for a re-examination of past arguments made. Quite often, when discussing deaths by gun in the US, gun proponents have argued that suicide numbers skew the overall issue too much and should not be included. Afterall, if you want to kill yourself a gun is but one way, there are others if you can’t get a gun. Because those numbers are so substantial getting them out of consideration very much helps the case of gun rights. A [new study](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1916744), published in the New England Journal of Medicine, seems to cast some doubt here. Guns figure large in suicides and there is no avoiding their impact. What’s more, this study, while not exactly breaking new ground, seems to be the most thorough yet and puts a pin in the “can’t be sure” arguments (as far as that goes…it is still a study). There is too much to quote from this article so I will put a few bits in but it is worth reading: > [@](#): > > The decision to buy a handgun for the first time is typically motivated by self-protection. But it also raises the purchasers’ risk of deliberately shooting themselves by ninefold on average, with the danger most acute in the weeks after purchase, scientists reported on Wednesday. The risk remains elevated for years, they said. > > The findings are from the largest analysis to date tracking individual, first-time gun owners and suicide for more than a decade. > > The study, posted by The New England Journal of Medicine, does not greatly alter the prevailing understanding of suicide risk linked to gun ownership. Previous research had suggested a similarly increased risk, due largely to the ease of having such a lethal option at hand. > > But experts said the new evidence was more powerfully persuasive than any research to date. The study tracked nearly 700,000 first-time handgun buyers, year by year, and compared them with similar non-owners, breaking out risk by gender. Men who bought a gun for the first time were eight times as likely to kill themselves by gunshot in the subsequent 12 years than non-owners; women were 35 times as likely to do so. (Male gun owners far outnumbered women owners in the study.) > > \ > > “We sure do see evidence that people went to get the gun because they had planned to take their own lives,” Dr. Studdert said. > > The risk of suicide remained elevated over the entire 12-year duration of the study, and it was in this longer period after the first month that most of the suicides — 52 percent — occurred. “During this period, the gun acts much more like an ambient risk — it’s always there,” Dr. Studdert said. > > SOURCE: [First-Time Gun Owners at Risk for Suicide, Major Study Confirms](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/health/suicide-guns-firearms.html) So, can we agree that suicide by gun statistics absolutely should be a part of any gun debate and not pushed aside? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/2 "2020-06-05T01:04:39Z")
Maybe society should be collectively taking up “the gun debate” in earnest in like, 5 years. Right now is like the absolute last time on earth that there is anything to be gained from talking about it. Between people on the left terrified of our authoritarian and increasingly militarized government flexing deadly force on people, people on the right terrified of riots and looting, and people in the center wondering if the whole thing is going to completely implode and we’re going to have armed Trump militias rolling around summarily executing people, I’d say we’ll leave the whole gun thing right where it is for the moment. That’s just me though. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/3 "2020-06-05T01:20:58Z")
Yes. I don’t have a cite but I remember a study where most of those who’d attempted suicide didn’t try again some significant period of time later. People who try to kill themselves are often having a meltdown, a moment of temporary irrationality brought about by intense emotion. Once they’re past it, they can see that suicide isn’t a good idea. Pretty much all of us have had moments when we felt a strong emotion and then did something we later regretted. The problem is that, with guns, you have a means of suicide which is simple, quick, easy and definitive. It can take a few seconds to go from impulsive decision to death. There are people for whom suicide was a careful considered decision. I guess those shouldn’t be included but I’d hazard it’s a minority. Lamoral, I agree that the gun issue isn’t one which is judicious to press at this point. If I understand correctly, the thread is more specific than that question. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/4 "2020-06-05T01:25:12Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Maybe society should be collectively taking up “the gun debate” in earnest in like, 5 years. Right now is like the absolute last time on earth that there is anything to be gained from talking about it. As a matter of politics I agree. Of all the issues facing the US right now gun control is very low on the list. I wrote the OP because the study came out today so it seemed topical to discuss it and relates to using suicide as a metric in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/5 "2020-06-05T02:36:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, can we agree that suicide by gun statistics absolutely should be a part of any gun debate and not pushed aside? I don’t know if it’s ever pushed aside entirely as when gun deaths are brought up suicide is included in the figures. In the last decade I’ve seen suicide become a part of the gun control debate more frequently than it was in the 1990s or most of the 2000s. I expect it’ll continue to be brought up when we once again begin the gun control debate in earnest. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/6 "2020-06-05T02:53:08Z")
I agree 100% with this proposition, but I wish that the linked article had reported more of the findings of the NEJM study. The numbers they chose to report were the ones that were most dramatic, but not the ones that actually addressed the objection of guns rights advocates when it comes to including suicides in the guns rights calculations. The standard reason for dismissing suicide by gun from the equation is that gun activists say that those people would have just killed themselves some other way. So they are unlikely to be convinced by an increase in suicide by the 8 or 35 fold increase of suicide by gun, since they will just say that among the non-gun owners there could be an 8 or 35 fold increase in other ways to commit suicide. The statistic from the study they should have concentrated on was that among gun owners, there was an increase in the overall rate of death by suicide of 3.34 fold for males and 7.16 for females vs non gun owners. So while it is true that the number of people listed as gun death by suicide includes many who would have killed themselves anyway even if they didn’t have a gun, a rough calculation shows that about 73% of gun owners who kill themselves would still be alive if they hadn’t owned a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/7 "2020-06-05T02:58:55Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t know if it’s ever pushed aside entirely as when gun deaths are brought up suicide is included in the figures. In the last decade I’ve seen suicide become a part of the gun control debate more frequently than it was in the 1990s or most of the 2000s. I expect it’ll continue to be brought up when we once again begin the gun control debate in earnest. The gun rights activists definitely try to [cast it aside](https://www.nraila.org/articles/19991106/suicide-and-firearms). [QUOTE=NRA website] A discussion of suicide involves many issues.8 If the issue is firearms, the first question to be addressed is “Do firearms cause suicide?” If firearms do not cause suicide but are merely implements utilized to accomplish the act, implements for which others would be substituted if firearms were not available, then it can be said fairly that the use of firearms in suicide is not relevant to the debate over firearm laws, rules and regulations.9 [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/8 "2020-06-05T04:40:18Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I agree 100% with this proposition, but I wish that the linked article had reported more of the findings of the NEJM study. The numbers they chose to report were the ones that were most dramatic, but not the ones that actually addressed the objection of guns rights advocates when it comes to including suicides in the guns rights calculations. The standard reason for dismissing suicide by gun from the equation is that gun activists say that those people would have just killed themselves some other way. I know you’ve addressed with other stats, but here’s some more info on “other methods” > **[Lethality of Suicide Methods](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/)** > > What Governs Lethality? A number of factors are theorized to influence the lethality of a given method. The first is inherent deadliness. For example, car exhaust with a high CO level will be more … Suicide by gun is the most successful at 85% followed by drowning at 66% ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/9 "2020-06-05T05:27:11Z")
Adults should have the right to commit suicide should they wish, body autonomy and all. There should be a way to legally and safely get meds to painlessly perform the act. No one should be forced to have to use a firearm to end their life. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/10 "2020-06-05T05:55:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Adults should have the right to commit suicide should they wish, body autonomy and all. There should be a way to legally and safely get meds to painlessly perform the act. No one should be forced to have to use a firearm to end their life. I agree people should be able to end their life if they want to. I also think they should not do so on a whim. So many suicides are spur of the moment choices when in a really dark place. Those should be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/11 "2020-06-05T06:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > We identified handgun acquisitions and deaths in a cohort of 26.3 million male and female residents of California, 21 years old or older, who had not previously acquired handguns. That’s a lot of qualified requirements. This isn’t the first study to suggest a link, but it’s definitely not the most methodologically sound version. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/12 "2020-06-05T15:39:15Z")
If you want to kill yourself, using a gun is more likely to get it done, than any other means. Women are more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than men. Women tend to be more serious about committing suicide than men. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/13 "2020-06-05T15:50:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, can we agree that suicide by gun statistics absolutely should be a part of any gun debate and not pushed aside? What do you mean by “part of” the debate? The quibbling over the total number of deaths (and whether to include or exclude suicides) seems to be about how to portray the “size” of the gun death “problem.” Once you move into serious discussions, you quickly discover that you have a variety of distinct (and partially overlapping) problems that likely demand different solutions. For example, few (if any) of the conventional “gun control” proposals would seem likely have a meaningful effect on gun suicides. Other than a complete abolition of personally-owned handguns (which I frequently hear is not the aim or end goal of a significant part of the gun control movement), I have trouble imagining any policy that would be rationally aimed at both gun suicides and gun homicides (especially non-domestic gun homicides). ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/14 "2020-06-05T16:16:54Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If you want to kill yourself, using a gun is more likely to get it done, than any other means. Women are more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than men. Women tend to be more serious about committing suicide than men. I think you might have that backwards - I thought men are more likely to succeed in suicide attempts, but women make more suicide attempts overall. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/15 "2020-06-05T18:34:05Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Women are more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than men. Women tend to be more serious about committing suicide than men. Both of these are _dead_ wrong, pun intended. Men are far more likely to succeed in their attempt. Probably because they are more likely to use a firearm 6/1 than women do. About 86% of firearm suicides are men. I’ll post a cite when I am at an actual computer unless someone beats me to it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/16 "2020-06-05T18:58:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I know, I know, we’ve been here and done this a million times on the SDMB. > > However, some new evidence has come to light which I think should allow for a re-examination of past arguments made… > > So, can we agree that suicide by gun statistics absolutely should be a part of any gun debate and not pushed aside? Basically that article sez that males sometimes buy a gun in order to kill themselves. People also get poison to kill themselves or buy rope or hoard prescription medicines. Should we ban rope or prescription medicines? Women more often poison themselves. It is no surprise that men sometimes buy a gun in order to commit suicide. That study comes to a bogus conclusion and is a paid for hit piece - it sez right there:_Funded by the Fund for a Safer Future_ … _Fund for a Safer Future: [Homepagewww.fundforasaferfuture.org](http://Homepagewww.fundforasaferfuture.org) More than 115,000 Americans will be shot this year. And 35,000 of them will die. It’s time to imagine a world free from gun violence. We all deserve a safer future. Who We Are FSF plays a strategic role in the gun violence prevention …_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/17 "2020-06-05T19:08:13Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > … > > The statistic from the study they should have concentrated on was that among gun owners, there was an increase in the overall rate of death by suicide of 3.34 fold for males and 7.16 for females vs non gun owners. So while it is true that the number of people listed as gun death by suicide includes many who would have killed themselves anyway even if they didn’t have a gun, a rough calculation shows that about 73% of gun owners who kill themselves would still be alive if they hadn’t owned a gun. No, that is a false conclusion. It just means two things: Men sometimes buy a gun just to commit suicide. If you have a gun, that is your preferred method of suicide. By no means does it show that just owning a gun make suicide more likely. Look at Japan, with a much higher suicide rate than the USA- and virtually no guns at all. Same with South Korea , India, Belgium, and especially Russia. In fact there are some 30 nations with a higher suicide rate than America, and none have the gun ownership rate of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/18 "2020-06-05T19:10:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Adults should have the right to commit suicide should they wish, body autonomy and all. There should be a way to legally and safely get meds to painlessly perform the act. No one should be forced to have to use a firearm to end their life. True, suicide should be a basic human right, even tho in many cases it is a tragedy . ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/19 "2020-06-05T20:54:21Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The gun rights activists definitely try to [cast it aside](https://www.nraila.org/articles/19991106/suicide-and-firearms). Which doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Laws designed to prevent the misuse of firearms by criminals, background checks, waiting periods, etc., etc., aren’t going to prevent suicides. The fact that some people commit suicide with firearms shouldn’t affect my right to purchase one. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/20 "2020-06-05T21:04:11Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I think you might have that backwards - I thought men are more likely to succeed in suicide attempts, but women make more suicide attempts overall. I think the stat is that women are far less likely to use a gun-- but more likely to succeed if they do happen to. I know of two women (one I knew personally, and one was the cousin of a close friend) who failed at their first attempt, then later succeeded with a gun. Actually, rather than trying to exclude suicide stats, gun rights advocates ought to take up the right-to-suicide cause. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081.md?page=2)