# Resolved: Suicide should be considered when discussing gun in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081 "2020-06-05T00:34:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/21 "2020-06-05T22:12:49Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If you want to kill yourself, using a gun is more likely to get it done, than any other means. Women are more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than men. Women tend to be more serious about committing suicide than men. CITE? The statistics from the paper seem to suggest the exact opposite. (at least in California). From this it looks like for both males and female gun owners around 88.5% who killed themselves used a gun, while for non-gun owners, 48% of men killed themselves with a gun vs 17.6% of women. When you also factor in the fact that many more men are gun owners than women, it is clear that more men use guns to kill themselves than women. Furthermore, even though 55% of the non gun owners were women, only 30% of the successful suicides were women. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/22 "2020-06-05T22:48:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > CITE? > > The statistics from the paper seem to suggest the exact opposite. (at least in California). From this it looks like for both males and female gun owners around 88.5% who killed themselves used a gun, while for non-gun owners, 48% of men killed themselves with a gun vs 17.6% of women. When you also factor in the fact that many more men are gun owners than women, it is clear that more men use guns to kill themselves than women. Furthermore, even though 55% of the non gun owners were women, only 30% of the successful suicides were women. I am pretty sure you are right. Women are more likely to attempt suicide, yes. Now as to how, i have seen numbers that show that for females guns and poisons are about even, with the edge going to poison on the cste I liked the best. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/23 "2020-06-06T01:48:15Z")
I agree with this and I own guns (for protection and sport). ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/24 "2020-06-06T04:52:53Z")
\>Men who bought a gun for the first time were eight times as likely to kill themselves by gunshot in the subsequent 12 years than non-owners No surprise there. Those that don’t have a firearm are more likely to kill themselves by not-gunshot. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/25 "2020-06-06T06:59:36Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > For example, few (if any) of the conventional “gun control” proposals would seem likely have a meaningful effect on gun suicides. Other than a complete abolition of personally-owned handguns (which I frequently hear is not the aim or end goal of a significant part of the gun control movement), I have trouble imagining any policy that would be rationally aimed at both gun suicides and gun homicides (especially non-domestic gun homicides). Red flag laws. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/26 "2020-06-06T07:36:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, that is a false conclusion. It just means two things: > > Men sometimes buy a gun just to commit suicide. > > If you have a gun, that is your preferred method of suicide. > > By no means does it show that just owning a gun make suicide more likely. Obviously you didn’t read the link. Even after the initial period, those with guns were twice as likely to commit suicide as those without guns 12 years from the purchase. And a lot more in the months after the purchase. From [here](https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/article/how-do-gun-laws-affect-suicide-rates): > [@](#): > > Over the last two decades, suicide rates have risen dramatically across the country. And while firearms are used in less than 10 percent of all suicide attempts, they account for more than half of all suicide deaths. Gun violence and mass shootings make frequent headlines, but nearly two-thirds of firearm deaths are the result of suicide, not homicide. and > [@](#): > > Restricting access to lethal means, at least temporarily, during a time of crisis can prevent suicide. Even if one wishing to attempt suicide were to substitute a different method, he or she is far more likely to survive that attempt because firearms are the most lethal means available. And the vast majority of individuals who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die from suicide in the future. So successful suicide is far more likely if you have a gun. In this country, not others. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/27 "2020-06-06T08:51:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I know, I know, we’ve been here and done this a million times on the SDMB. > > However, some new evidence has come to light which I think should allow for a re-examination of past arguments made. > > Quite often, when discussing deaths by gun in the US, gun proponents have argued that suicide numbers skew the overall issue too much and should not be included. Afterall, if you want to kill yourself a gun is but one way, there are others if you can’t get a gun. Because those numbers are so substantial getting them out of consideration very much helps the case of gun rights. > > A [new study](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1916744), published in the New England Journal of Medicine, seems to cast some doubt here. Guns figure large in suicides and there is no avoiding their impact. What’s more, this study, while not exactly breaking new ground, seems to be the most thorough yet and puts a pin in the “can’t be sure” arguments (as far as that goes…it is still a study). > > There is too much to quote from this article so I will put a few bits in but it is worth reading: > > So, can we agree that suicide by gun statistics absolutely should be a part of any gun debate and not pushed aside? For me, it always comes back to per capita deaths by suicide. The US, for all of the well known fact that we have a lot more guns than just about any other western nation or industrialized nation isn’t even close to the highest per capita for suicides. There are several nations with very strict gun control that are. Why? Sure, it’s complex, but if you are going to bring in gun deaths you need to answer this, IMHO…otherwise, I suspect that bringing in suicides is basically a way for those on the anti-gun side to essentially just inflate the numbers to look more scary without context. I’d need to be convinced by some evidence that the US, who is really in the middle of the pack wrt suicides per capita would substantially change those numbers if guns were outlawed or even more strictly controlled. I mean, WHY would those number change? Why would the US, with all of the other issues we have that lead to suicide, suddenly go from the middle of the pack wrt suicide deaths per capita to the among the lowest in the industrialized world if you magically took those suicides out by simply removing guns? To me, this has never been adequately answered. Instead, I’ve heard how gun suicides are more likely to kill, and how people don’t get second chances, blah blah blah…but this doesn’t explain why in countries with heavy gun control or even basically gun bans their numbers per capita are higher than ours, or why this one change would shift our own from where they are to among the lowest. Don’t use stats, don’t quote studies…I’ve seen them and, to me at least, they don’t answer this basic question. Walk me through the logic as to why the US, with the host of issues we have, would go from where we are today to a sustained suicide per capita rate that would be among the lowest in the world with this one change. If you want to say we’d fix all the other issues as well, then that doesn’t really say why we don’t do that first instead of focusing on gun control as the fix. If you have another explanation I’m all ears, as, to me, this is the key thing that is always danced around and why I, personally, disregard suicide deaths in these sorts of debates. To me, suicide rates are a sunk cost…regardless of whether you have guns or don’t have guns, a given society WILL have suicides, especially if you don’t address a host of other, underlying issues that leads to suicides. THOSE issues can, IMHO, substantially change the suicide rates. The method? I’m not seeing it as the critical issue, as, to me, people who want to commit suicide will find ways. Fix the core issue as to WHY people want to commit suicide, not how they choose to do it. That’s JMHO and all, but if you want to convince me I’d need a logical reason which, to me, has never been given in these debates. YMMV of course. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/28 "2020-06-06T12:01:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Basically that article sez that males sometimes buy a gun in order to kill themselves. People also get poison to kill themselves or buy rope or hoard prescription medicines. > > Should we ban rope or prescription medicines? Like some others in the thread you ignore that Suicide attempts with guns are more likely to SUCCEED than suicide attempts with pills. And the suggestion that those who want to ban dangerous objects should also want to ban useful or even life-saving things is the sort of asinine non sequitur which makes it pointless to discuss guns with gun nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/29 "2020-06-06T12:51:14Z")
There are many times when loved ones and friends have removed someones guns whom they felt was suicidal. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/30 "2020-06-06T15:31:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > There are many times when loved ones and friends have removed someones guns whom they felt was suicidal. Isn’t that illegal? Denying a person his Second Amendment Rights? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/31 "2020-06-06T16:33:48Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Isn’t that illegal? Denying a person his Second Amendment Rights? Many people can do this voluntarily. But not in California, where it is an illegal transfer to give them away for safekeeping, without involving cops and an expensive process. I suppose the best think you can do is keep them in a safe if you have one, and hand over the keys. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/32 "2020-06-06T17:06:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Obviously you didn’t read the link. Even after the initial period, those with guns were twice as likely to commit suicide as those without guns 12 years from the purchase. And a lot more in the months after the purchase. > From [here](https://americanhealth.jhu.edu/article/how-do-gun-laws-affect-suicide-rates): > > and > So successful suicide is far more likely if you have a gun. In this country, not others. You obviously didnt read my post , even when you quoted it:\*If you have a gun, that is your preferred method of suicide. \* And yes, no doubt, hanging or poisoning is less deadly that shooting. So? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/33 "2020-06-06T17:14:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Like some others in the thread you ignore that Suicide attempts with guns are more likely to SUCCEED than suicide attempts with pills. > > And the suggestion that those who want to ban dangerous objects should also want to ban useful or even life-saving things is the sort of asinine non sequitur which makes it pointless to discuss guns with gun nuts. No doubt, guns are more deadly than hanging or poisoning. Again- so? If a person wants to exercise their right to commit suicide, shouldnt they be successful? Gun are both useful and life-saving. This makes it pointless to discuss guns with gun grabbers. But I am not a “gun nut.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/34 "2020-06-06T17:33:28Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Maybe society should be collectively taking up “the gun debate” in earnest in like, 5 years. Right now is like the absolute last time on earth that there is anything to be gained from talking about it. Between people on the left terrified of our authoritarian and increasingly militarized government flexing deadly force on people, people on the right terrified of riots and looting, and people in the center wondering if the whole thing is going to completely implode and we’re going to have armed Trump militias rolling around summarily executing people, I’d say we’ll leave the whole gun thing right where it is for the moment. > > That’s just me though. It never is a good time, is it? > [@madsircool](#): > > Adults should have the right to commit suicide should they wish, body autonomy and all. There should be a way to legally and safely get meds to painlessly perform the act. No one should be forced to have to use a firearm to end their life. Do you advocate making suicide pills available over the counter? Available at gas stations? Sold as a combo pack with lottery tickets? I think that suicide is a right, and should be part of our mental health system. If you want to commit suicide, then you should be able to go to a place that will try to help you with the problems that you are struggling with, that will try to talk you out of it, but ultimately, if you have made an informed decision, help you to end your life as humanely and painlessly as possible. A gun in the nightstand is not exactly the same thing. > [@Falchion](#): > > What do you mean by “part of” the debate? The quibbling over the total number of deaths (and whether to include or exclude suicides) seems to be about how to portray the “size” of the gun death “problem.” Once you move into serious discussions, you quickly discover that you have a variety of distinct (and partially overlapping) problems that likely demand different solutions. > > For example, few (if any) of the conventional “gun control” proposals would seem likely have a meaningful effect on gun suicides. Other than a complete abolition of personally-owned handguns (which I frequently hear is not the aim or end goal of a significant part of the gun control movement), I have trouble imagining any policy that would be rationally aimed at both gun suicides and gun homicides (especially non-domestic gun homicides). > [@Odesio](#): > > Which doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Laws designed to prevent the misuse of firearms by criminals, background checks, waiting periods, etc., etc., aren’t going to prevent suicides. The fact that some people commit suicide with firearms shouldn’t affect my right to purchase one. To this I say, you are right, we should not make laws with the intent of preventing people from getting a gun to kill themselves with. I have no idea how such a thing would work, even if we didn’t worry about pesky things like the Constitution or how to enforce it. OTOH, having fewer guns in the hands of criminals reduces the demand for guns in the law abiding. I have to admit that with the unrest over the past coupla months, I have seriously considered getting a gun. I don’t feel I need a gun to protect my house from invaders, I have a couple dogs, and even though I’m getting into my 40’s now, I can still put up a pretty good fight. If they have a gun though, I need one too. And there’s a whole lot of guns out there. So, I do weigh my safety against the danger of having a gun. At this time, I still side against becoming an armed American, but it’s still on the table. Fewer law abiding people who feel that the need to have guns are fewer law abiding people with the ability to commit suicide on a whim or during a dark moment. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/35 "2020-06-06T19:49:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You obviously didnt read my post , even when you quoted it:\*If you have a gun, that is your preferred method of suicide. > \* > > And yes, no doubt, hanging or poisoning is less deadly that shooting. So? That’s not what the quotes say. They say that those with guns commit suicide at a higher rate than those without. I am not disputing that guns are the favorite way. Poison often fails to kill you - guns seldom do. Thus if you do not have a gun your chance of survival is much better. Plus poison takes more preparation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/36 "2020-06-06T19:56:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No doubt, guns are more deadly than hanging or poisoning. Again- so? If a person wants to exercise their right to commit suicide, shouldnt they be successful? I’m all for assisted suicide That has nothing to do with suicide when someone goes off their meds or is depressed and not thinking straight. If you’ve had people close to you kill themselves that way you wouldn’t be so insensitive. > [@](#): > > Gun are both useful and life-saving. This makes it pointless to discuss guns with gun grabbers. But if they kill far more than they save, what then? We know they do, otherwise the NRA wouldn’t be so opposed to research in this area. > [@](#): > > But I am not a “gun nut.” Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/37 "2020-06-06T21:11:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Quite often, when discussing deaths by gun in the US, gun proponents have argued that suicide numbers skew the overall issue too much and should not be included. Afterall, if you want to kill yourself a gun is but one way, there are others if you can’t get a gun. You can say the exact same thing about murder - if you want to kill someone a gun is but one way, there are others if you can’t get a gun. Yet we count murders-by-gun in the statistics for gun deaths, why should suicides be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/38 "2020-06-06T21:22:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > For me, it always comes back to per capita deaths by suicide. I do not know why this is relevant. Different societies have different stresses and taboos and what not when it comes to suicide. I do not think this is the same as comparing crime statistics. I would think a mobster in Japan is not “nicer” than a mobster in the US and you are as likely to be killed by one as much as the other. Suicide has all sorts of societal baggage and some are more prone to it than others. Access to guns is not definitive since, as is often noted, there are many ways to kill yourself without using a gun. But we can see from the study that guns skew things. It is not as if banning guns would make suicides end but it is clear it would reduce the number of successful suicides. Guns are an almost irrevocable means of suicide. It follows that making an access to a gun more difficult would reduce suicide deaths. That is what this study tells us. FWIW: I had a friend who bought a pistol and committed suicide with it less than a month later. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/39 "2020-06-06T21:23:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You can say the exact same thing about murder - if you want to kill someone a gun is but one way, there are others if you can’t get a gun. Yet we count murders-by-gun in the statistics for gun deaths, why should suicides be any different? Yeah…and militaries could go to war and kill each other without guns too. But they use guns because they are really good at the job. They make killing easier than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081/40 "2020-06-07T01:28:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m all for assisted suicide That has nothing to do with suicide when someone goes off their meds or is depressed and not thinking straight. If you’ve had people close to you kill themselves that way you wouldn’t be so insensitive. > But if they kill far more than they save, what then? We know they do, otherwise the NRA wouldn’t be so opposed to research in this area. > > Sure. I am not insensitive. Like i said- altho I think suicide is a basic human right, it is usually a tragedy. And I have had someone close to me commit suicide by gun. Mind you, they had inoperable cancer, so… No, actually they dont: The NRA, and Congress , isnt opposed to research- you can research all you want. The Law says that the CDC cant spend any of their budget on trying to promote gun control. Their big study- the famous one, was made with the \*avowed purpose of gun control. \* S, here I am, a small L libertarian, who has a great respect for the Bill of Rights. I dont belong to the NRA, nor do i have a AR15 or any sort of gun collection. But because I dont like stupid laws that do nothing and I want to protect the Bill of Rights- you call me a “gun nut”.:rolleyes: Can I call you a “gun grabber”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-suicide-should-be-considered-when-discussing-gun-in-america/855081.md?page=3)