# Resolved, that using "karen" as a pejorative is off limits **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430 "2023-07-23T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/181 "2023-07-29T19:19:00Z")
And “crackers” is right out! Or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/182 "2023-07-29T19:37:47Z")
The mods do a really good job. This has made this a pleasant site for over two decades. The reason is because of context, which tends to matter, and balance. If they feel they need more rules to do their job, I have confidence they will take action. But no one needs random rules for rare situations just because some busybody has too much time in their hands. If only there were a noun describing that behaviour. If the mods want _suggestions_ for banning words, which they don’t need, start with: synergy, to not know what you don’t know, digital transformation, wheelhouse, customer journey, at the end of the day, paradigm, teambuilding, pivot, learnings, on-boarding, feedback loop, disruptive, fail fast and freemium. Along with all the others a reasonable person would not use to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/183 "2023-07-29T21:56:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And “crackers” is right out! Or maybe not. You think you are pointing out something too silly to happen, but… > [@Use of the word Cracker](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/use-of-the-word-cracker/713446): > > Is it OK to refer to groups of poor white southern people as “Crackers”? Mr. Glutton seems to think so, presumably based on the idea that some of the people in that group call themselves that. But, more than a few African Americans call themselves, and others, the N-word. Pretty sure calling groups of black people the N-word wouldn’t be allowed on this message board. Why the disparate treatment of the two terms on this message board? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=181552…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18155239&postcount=677) There is also this: > [@The word Shiksa](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/189): > > It’s much easier to be a gentile than a Jew, so there are old traditions to turn away prospective converts a few times. If she was turned away altogether it’s because they didn’t think she was serious about it, and that’s for her benefit. It would be actively harmful (spiritually speaking, but there are plenny temporal difficulties as well) to allow the conversion of somebody who didn’t intend to follow all the additional rules. But the “Noachide” thing is still really weird, even for a Reform… We have yet to cover fatty fatty boombalatty. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/oTXkPc-7KdY/hqdefault.jpg "Fatty Boombalatty - Hate Speech") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTXkPc-7KdY) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/184 "2023-07-29T22:16:28Z")
Steer clear of Boom Shak-A-Lak too. Way too many ethnicities and cliches there; somebody’s gonna object to something somehow. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kZzBd41NuZw/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AHcBYAC4AOKAgwIABABGH8gTSgfMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBeXpC_SRiLpgD5dS4ma7EMzaqz4g "Apache Indian - Boom Shack-A-Lack (HQ Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZzBd41NuZw) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/185 "2023-07-29T22:39:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > [@DSeid](#): > > > > So being a brown immigrant means that they can be an ass or a bully to others, because they are in a disadvantaged group? No one else has any right to complain? A white middle aged woman should just shut the fuck up? > > No. Complaining about how your name is being used is nothing compared to the indignities people who are not of your privileged socioeconomic/ethnic background have to put up with. It’s like a person saying, ‘My house burned down and my cats died!’ and then having a Person of Privilege saying, ‘But I wasn’t able to get a nail appointment!’ – John, who’s name is used for ‘toilet’. It’s kind of the reverse, actually. It’s someone saying, “I wasn’t able to get a nail appointment!” And someone _responding_ “That’s nothing, my house burned down and my cat died!” That’s gauche, in my opinion. I saw an example of this on Reddit today. Someone posted about how they enjoy reminiscing about good memories and the other person responded, “Oh, must be nice! When you have CPTSD\*\* you have to repress good memories in case bad ones come up. Better enjoy your privilege!” I mean, come on. \*\*Which arguably is not a valid clinical diagnosis, I should add ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/186 "2023-07-30T00:47:52Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > You could of course use Jules or Bert, but nicknames just don’t have the same clout. How about an unflattering nickname like “Carrot”? They do seem to be MAGA-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/187 "2023-07-30T01:01:28Z")
I agree. While I am sure there are AWFLs out there most Karens I have seen seem to be conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/188 "2023-07-30T01:10:46Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > How about an unflattering nickname like “Carrot”? [![](https://www.grunge.com/img/gallery/why-you-rarely-hear-about-carrot-top-upgrade/intro-1630516728.jpg) ](https://www.grunge.com/img/gallery/why-you-rarely-hear-about-carrot-top-upgrade/intro-1630516728.jpg) That might also upset redheads in general. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/189 "2023-07-30T03:16:22Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Are Karen and Kevin the only names that could have caught on, in meme-fashion, to refer to self-entitled assholes? No, other typically White names,… But name is not needed, Self-entitled assholes says it all, without being biotrd drxist or hurtful to others. And the last but proves it is bigoted. > [@Tibby](#): > > Using a typically Jewish name to suggest stingy, Asian names to suggest not well-endowed, Indian names to suggest unhygienic, and so on, are wrong, despicable, harmful, and should be banned from our language. Then why is karen okay? Just as wrong, despicable, & harmful. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I now look forward to at least two more ATMB threads ~~demanding to see a mod~~ requesting a fucking word be totally banned. I did not so request. But you knew that. I asked that its causal use as a pejorative be discouraged. The thread I linked to would be closed with a note, for example. No warning no bannings, not a banned word. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/190 "2023-07-30T03:36:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I asked that its causal use as a pejorative be discouraged. > > The thread I linked to would be closed with a note, for example. No warning no bannings, not a banned word. Yeah, I can see how that’s entirely different from banning the word in question… ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/191 "2023-07-30T07:57:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then why is karen okay? Just as wrong, despicable, & harmful. You are literally equating “Karen” with racism. This is why you are out of step with virtually the entire community here. This is a pretty extreme viewpoint. I’m not saying you should be chastised for that, you’re entitled to your opinion, but don’t be surprised if your suggestions aren’t met with enthusiasm. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I asked that its causal use as a pejorative be discouraged. By moderating people who use it, thus making it a banned word. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The thread I linked to would be closed with a note, for example. No warning no bannings, not a banned word. The thread you linked to would be closed _because a word was used_. You are asking that usage of the word be forbidden. That’s what banning a word looks like. I don’t think you even realize yourself what you are asking for. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/192 "2023-07-30T09:46:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then why is karen okay? Just as wrong, despicable, & harmful. No. Not even close. The way Karen objectors shape their arguments is serving as a textbook example of White fragility, though, so this set of threads has its uses. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/193 "2023-07-30T11:43:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Tibby](#): > > > > Using a typically Jewish name to suggest stingy, Asian names to suggest not well-endowed, Indian names to suggest unhygienic, and so on, are wrong, despicable, harmful, and should be banned from our language. > > Then why is karen okay? Just as wrong, despicable, & harmful. I can see that my post wasn’t clear, so allow me to explain. The _names_ of ethnic people should not be banned; the _racist language_ that follows the symbolic names is what should be banned. I don’t believe any word (including first names) should be banned, especially on an adult-oriented platform like the SDMB (where we don’t suffer fools). Xenophobic speech should be banned, not words. Any word or name can be used in the proper context. Context and intent are what’s important. Example: the N-word can generally be used by Black people in certain venues, like stand-up routines on stage. Some White comedians can get away with using the N-word on stage too, though they should tread lightly, making sure they don’t come across as racist, and that they are funny. Comics like Bill Burr can get away with it (he’s clearly not racist, and his rants ridicule racists), but comics like Michael Richards can’t (his notorious rant was clearly racist). Intent matters. Many people mistook the intent of the TV show All in the Family, because Archie Bunker used a lot of racial, religious and gender slurs. Even as a kid, when the show premiered, I understood the show was ridiculing bigotry (Archie was clearly portrayed as ignorant, though somewhat redeemable when educated), yet I heard more than a few adults claim they hated the show because it was so racist. They also portrayed the neighbor Jefferson as an ignorant racist against Whites. IRL Carroll O’Connor (the star), and Norman Lear (the creator) were progressive liberals. They effectively showed that racism (and ethnocentrism, and misogyny) is ignorant, hurtful, and common in suburbia. But, people see what they want to see, and many wanted to see the show as racist—dumb people mostly. Words should not be banned, only hate speech should. Even the C-word can be used without repercussion in certain circumstances. British people use the word in a non-misogynist manner when ribbing their mates at the pub. In proper context that word can be used without a hint of misogyny (I personally don’t like it, or use it, but I’m kind of a prude). I doubt those same Brits would rib the late QEII with the C-word, however, lest they risk rotting in the Tower. Know your audience. _“Abe is a penny-pitching tightwad”_ is a slur against Jews, not against people named Abe. Slurs against Jews is xenophobic speech, and those engaging in it (and meaning it) should be banned. The name Abe is simply a symbol for Jewish people (any common Jewish name would have the same effect). People named Abe weren’t hurt, the Jewish religion was hurt. If a particular Abe is indeed Jewish, he was harmed in exactly the same way other Jewish people were harmed, no matter what their name is. Non-stupid people understand the distinction. _“Karen (or Kevin) really laid into that poor Black kid for selling cookies in her neighborhood”_ is a slur against self-entitled assholes, not against women named Karen. The name Karen is simply a symbol for White assholes. Any Nordic sounding name would suffice. And, that is the difference. _“Abe is a penny-pinching tightwad”_ is a slur against Jews (a rightfully protected class), and the slur, not the name should be banned. _“A Karen (karen) really exploded at the store today”_ is a slur against self-entitled assholes, and neither the name, nor the slur should be banned because asshole is not a protected class, and they deserve to be ridiculed. So, why not just say _“self-entitled asshole”_ instead of using a real name? Because the name is understood to mean much more than just _“self-entitled asshole.”_ It’s a more precise and powerful image. Compare these two sentences: _“Bob is a mathematical and physics genius; he’s a little eccentric but has the potential to change the world of science with his brilliance”_ versus, _“Bob’s a real Einstein.”_ Or, _“Yuga Wang was a musical prodigy who is now a world-renowned piano virtuoso, thrilling audiences with her technical skills and emotional depth”_, verses, _“Wang is the new Franz Liszt.”_ Or, _“I saw a self-entitled asshole at the store today spewing venom at a poor minority child, in a threatening manner”_, verses, _“I ran into a karen (or kevin) at the store today.”_ In all 3 cases, I’d choose the _second_ sentence. They say more, with less. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/194 "2023-07-30T13:16:30Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > “I ran into a karen (or kevin) at the store today.” Karen’s and Becky were created by blacks perceiving racist actions from certain whites women. Too Controversial to say honky? Some honkies caused a fuss today. It is what it is, a contemptuous term for a white person Don’t hide behind Karen bring it into the light what you really want to say. Or dont just say it because it’s a shortcut convenient to get your point across. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/195 "2023-07-30T13:26:30Z")
> [@chela](#): > > It is what it is, a contemptuous term for a white person No, as you pointed out, what it is is a contemptuous term for (initially) a white person (perceived to be) engaging in specific types of arrogantly racist actions. Using “Karen” as a disparaging term for any white person under any circumstances would indeed be racial bigotry, but AFAICT that’s not how the word is used. Along the same lines, do you consider “Nazi” to be a contemptuous term for a German person? Of course not, even though the original Nazis definitely were German people. The word has entered popular usage as an opprobrious epithet because it originally referred to German people who engaged in specific types of toxic behavior, not to German ethnicity in general. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/196 "2023-07-30T13:56:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Using “Karen” as a disparaging term for any white person under any circumstances would indeed be racial bigotry, but AFAICT that’s not how the word is used. And, AFAICT, the only change in the current usage from the ‘historical’ one is the much lower level of melanin in the overwhelming majority of the people using it. ---
**Author:** ![Galactus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galactus/32/3581_2.png) [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/197 "2023-07-30T14:32:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Let’s stop calling them Karens and start calling them Streisands instead. 😁 How about we call them Divas? As in, "Diva please, You don’t look like Beyonce! " ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/198 "2023-07-30T14:39:46Z")
^^^ Bingo. It is somewhat analogous to, _don’t kill the messenger (kill the message instead)_. In this case, the messenger is Karen or Kevin (generic White names). The message is the racist rant. Not to beat a dead Mr. Ed horse, but Karen/Kevin specifically refers to White racists who exhibit white-privileged behavior. In my experience, I come across as many Kevins as Karens, and I refer to them as such when relating encounters with them to my kids. Racists come in all colors and genders, and all racists should be ridiculed, condemned, and banned whenever possible. But, in Western Society, the only racists who are in the majority, and can therefore weaponize their perceived “privileged” position, are White people. This just adds an extra layer of horror to an already disgusting type of bigotry. As a counter-example, [some Japanese people are xenophobic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Japan) toward non-Japanese people living in Japan (and not just Westerners). They often face human rights violations. They call Westerners, 外国人 Gaikokujin or 外人 Gaijin (outsider or alien). Not all Japanese are racists, just like all White people aren’t racists. The racist Japanese are the Eastern equivalent to Western Karens/Kevins, though I don’t know if they have a name. All xenophobia should be exposed and condemned, especially when exhibited by those in power because power + racism = extra malignant damage. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/199 "2023-07-30T16:24:35Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Words should not be banned, only hate speech should. Bravo to your whole post. That explains the distinction very nicely, I think. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/200 "2023-07-30T17:44:41Z")
Yes. I second that. IMO @Tibby nailed the whole actual issue. All that remains is a certain amount of quibbling over whether Karenic behavior is necessarily racist, and conversely, whether accusations of Karenism are themselves necessarily racist. Karen _may_ have started as an epithet only black folks applied to only white folks who were picking on black folks. It’s sure not limited to that community and that target today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=11)