# Resolved, that using "karen" as a pejorative is off limits **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430 "2023-07-23T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/201 "2023-07-30T18:17:30Z")
Thank you for your post. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/202 "2023-07-30T19:36:56Z")
Thanks @Spice_Weasel, @LSLGuy, and @Dr_Paprika Witnessing karenism certainly isn’t a daily occurrence for me, but between shopping, wandering around touristy St. Augustine, watching Tic Tok vids (guilty as charged…but mostly to watch funny cat videos), and having kids showing me videos of _Karens in the Wild_, I see enough. More than enough, actually. I agree that karenic behavior is not entirely racist (though those are usually the worst cases). Some are ageist (both ways: prickly oldsters ranting at kids, and overly-pampered kids ranting at oldsters) and others are socioeconomic-ist (typically pearl or ascot-clutching wealthy customers berating less economically fortunate service providers, and cashiers). What they all have in common is a perceived air of superiority, a sense of self-entitlement…and being assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/203 "2023-07-30T19:50:40Z")
I think the best way to describe “karenism” is a person taking the “customer is always right” to an extreme. It’s about entitlement. It doesn’t have anything inherently to do with race or gender, though that can be a factor. Overall though, I think the meme is just a fad, one that’s played out and dying out, and I look forward to it going away. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/204 "2023-07-30T19:58:50Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Overall though, I think the meme is just a fad, one that’s played out and dying out, and I look forward to it going away. As long as the behavior a) is rampant in our society, and b) is viewed as odious by some/most, there will need to be a term for it. Depending on current events over the next 18-ish months, we may observe a lot of cheerleading for Karenic behavior. With the result of yet another upsurge in it amongst the self-appointed self-important. “Karen” itself may well become passé. Acting Karenically won’t be. Whatever we call it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/205 "2023-07-30T20:14:29Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > They call Westerners, 外国人 Gaikokujin or 外人 Gaijin (outsider or alien). I’ve always thought that the former was simply a descriptor, while the latter is a pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/206 "2023-07-30T20:37:58Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > “Karen” itself may well become passé. Acting Karenically won’t be. Whatever we call it. Karenisticly speaking, I’d like to see increased usage of the term “Karen.” Karenism has reached mega-karenistic proportions in our society and must be studied. Paleokarenologists believe Karens evolved from bacteria-like prokarenotic organisms, while others believe they evolved from more complex single-celled eukarenotes, but I believe they derived from gemete fertilization, in a fusion process called karenogamy. We will need accurate karenotyping to know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/207 "2023-07-30T20:42:30Z")
I’ll take your word for that. I’ve never been to Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/208 "2023-07-30T20:59:16Z")
I lived there as a small child, but I don’t remember learning that word. Just something I’ve always thought. Better to rely on @TokyoBayer. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/209 "2023-07-30T21:01:38Z")
Although, ref the thread about “Shiksa” and the thread about “Gentile”, the line between neutral descriptive term and mild (or worse) slur is often hard to define and as much a matter of tone and _in_tent as it is of _con_tent. Some will argue that the mere labeling of a group as a group is inherently so suspect as to be pejorative by definition. Personally I don’t go that far overboard, but semi-reasonable people can get there from here. Contrast 1. Last night at the restaurant the group of four people at the next table did _blah blah blah_ … 2. Last night at the restaurant the group of Black people at the next table did _blah blah blah_ … Some will argue that including the descriptor “Black”, even if meant simply as an additional factual detail, is inherently pejorative. Whereas the descriptor “four” is not. A lot of not quite truly bias-free Scotsmen can dance on those pinheads. Not a game I choose to play. Nor you if I read you correctly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/210 "2023-07-30T21:27:33Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > You are literally equating “Karen” with racism. This is why you are out of step with virtually the entire community here. This is a pretty extreme viewpoint. Bigotry, not racism, and many here agree. > [@Atamasama](#): > > By moderating people who use it, thus making it a banned word. Nonsense. Cracker isn’t banned, “bitch” isn’t banned. > [@Atamasama](#): > > The thread you linked to would be closed _because a word was used_. No, because that was what the whole thread was about. Not simple one use. Do we even have any banned words? Maybe the C-word, But that’s about it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The way Karen objectors shape their arguments is serving as a textbook example of White fragility, though, so this set of threads has its uses. Are you saying that bigotry against whites in acceptable? > [@Tibby](#): > > I don’t believe any word (including first names) should be banned, especially on an adult-oriented platform like the SDMB (where we don’t suffer fools). Xenophobic speech should be banned, not words. Any word or name can be used in the proper context. Context and intent are what’s important. Exactly. Nor am I asking that karen be banned. > [@Tibby](#): > > _“Abe is a penny-pitching tightwad”_ is a slur against Jews Or is it a slur against penny-pitching tightwad? You say that karen is a _slur against self-entitled assholes_. > [@chela](#): > > It is what it is, a contemptuous term for a white person Don’t hide behind Karen bring it into the light what you really want to say. Or dont just say it because it’s a shortcut convenient to get your point across. Exactly. > [@Kimstu](#): > > No, as you pointed out, what it is is a contemptuous term for (initially) a white person (perceived to be) engaging in specific types of arrogantly racist actions. No one claims karen is only used to engage in _specific types of arrogantly racist actions._ It is normally used for an entitle asshole who “I demand to see the manager” over some slight by an employee- who can be just as white as the asshole. Maybe thats the way it started but that not that way it is used now. > [@Tibby](#): > > Not to beat a dead Mr. Ed horse, but Karen/Kevin specifically refers to White racists who exhibit white-privileged behavior. No, it does not. Sometimes, sure. If we used it just as a pejorative towards white racists, fine. But in that linked thread it was not use that way much. In fact many people claim that black karens and Asian karens are a thing. > [@Atamasama](#): > > Overall though, I think the meme is just a fad, one that’s played out and dying out, and I look forward to it going away. If we hadnt just had that long thread, I would agree. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > As long as the behavior a) is rampant in our society, and b) is viewed as odious by some/most, there will need to be a term for it. Sure. Arrogant asshole. See, that is race and sex blind, and is not hurtful to nice women named Karen. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/211 "2023-07-30T21:27:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve always thought that the former was simply a descriptor, while the latter is a pejorative. Kind of. If you break down the meaning of the words, “gaikokujin” means “person from an outside country”. (Gai=outside, koku=country, jin=person.) “Gaijin” means “outside person”. So it’s somewhat considered a little less polite, because rather than saying a person is from a different place, you’re pointing out that the person themself is different. It’s not always a pejorative, some think of both terms as neutral and simply descriptive, but there is enough of a sense that “gaijin” is rude that you hear “gaikokujin” more often in the media or formal speech. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/212 "2023-07-31T03:54:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > [@Tibby](#): > > > > They call Westerners, 外国人 Gaikokujin or 外人 Gaijin (outsider or alien). > > I’ve always thought that the former was simply a descriptor, while the latter is a pejorative. Yes, 外国人 is more of a descriptor while 外人 can be a pejorative, although not necessarily. It’s complicated. When I was first in Japan, before there were many foreigners, most of the usage wasn’t racist. Other people had different experiences. There has been a push by some foreigners to get Japanese to use gaikokujin instead of gaijin. I don’t think that the terms are the problem, it’s the attitude, and the worst discrimination I’ve faced (such as being refused places to rent because I’m a foreigner) happened with the word gaikokujin. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/213 "2023-07-31T05:05:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you saying that bigotry against whites in acceptable? My wife remains unbeaten. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/214 "2023-07-31T17:04:27Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I don’t think that the terms are the problem, it’s the attitude, An apt comment given the whole thread is about words versus attitudes. And how certain words explicate the attitudes (both overt and covert) of the people using them. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/215 "2023-07-31T17:22:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bigotry, not racism, and many here agree. Which group is the target of this bigotry? And IMNSHO if the target of this ‘’‘bigotry’‘’ is solely based on the person’s entirely chosen behavior then it ain’t really bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/216 "2023-08-07T14:38:14Z")
Then there’s this view. > **[Don’t Just Assume That Language Is Harmful](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/addiction-drug-policy-language-harm-evidence/674907/)** > > Claims that specific terms hurt people should be evaluated in a rigorous way—not based only on hunches. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/217 "2023-08-07T20:07:25Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Then there’s this view. Paywalled, and also, it was not a “hunch” on my part, it was a number of actual women with that name saying it was hurtful to them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/218 "2023-08-07T20:28:49Z")
1. What number and, more importantly, what percentage of people named “Karen” say it is hurtful to them? 2. No matter what that number is, it is possible to get that number of people to agree with _any_ premise. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/219 "2023-08-07T20:35:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > - What number and, more importantly, what percentage of people named “Karen” say it is hurtful to them? All of the women named Karen I know. So you are saying using a useless term is fine if it only hurts a _few_ women, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/220 "2023-08-07T20:38:12Z")
A few. A number. All the women name Karen that you know, all of whom coincidentally have brought this subject up with you. How many? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=12)