# Resolved, that using "karen" as a pejorative is off limits **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430 "2023-07-23T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/261 "2023-08-10T17:52:00Z")
Maybe we should just call them Kharens, so the regular Karens don’t feel bad. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/262 "2023-08-10T22:13:06Z")
I think this thread should be renamed “Resolved: Using ‘Karen’ is really no big dea,” and closed. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/263 "2023-08-10T23:30:35Z")
You think that is the consensus? I read a whole range with the center of mass being that it should not be banned and that people who use the phrase embarrass themselves. Context matters and it is sometimes used with the same intent as saying “cunt.” But can’t say that. Mean it though. Sometimes not. What it virtually never is, is clever, while those who use it think it is. Honestly while @DrDeth articulated it less than ideally he’s on point. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/264 "2023-08-10T23:47:19Z")
Nah. Just being curmudgeonly terse. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/265 "2023-08-11T00:28:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Honestly while @DrDeth articulated it less than ideally he’s on point. IMHO. Yeah, if you had started this, I think less ridicule. But still plenty of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/266 "2023-08-11T00:36:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But still plenty of hypocrisy. What hypocrisy exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/267 "2023-08-11T01:52:19Z")
I agree with @Superdude this is a fruitless effort. And should be closed. You can stop some of the people, some of the time… But really it’s of no consequence. The word needn’t be banned. Just don’t be a jerk on the board and it’ll be fine. If it is, and I’m not sure it is, a pejorative it’s weak, at best. No where near the level of the b word or the c word. Out in the wild world you can beat yourself against a brick wall and not change one person. Sorry. ETA: if a person is out in public and acting like an uppity, racist, jerk they will be called names and possibly beat up. They are the real problem that needs to be addressed. (Oops, I used ‘uppity’…sorry) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2023, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/268 "2023-08-11T05:55:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > people who use the phrase embarrass themselves I feel absolutely zero embarrassment when I use the word to refer to White women weaponizing their racial privilege to harass and endanger Black people. Zero. I’m also not feeling embarrassed by my new primary secondary usage, which is for people (of all genders, races and creeds) who disingenuously refer to that first, original usage as racist or misogynist. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/269 "2023-08-13T03:33:28Z")
I am on record, upthread, as saying I think “Karen” should not be used in this fashion, because it is sexist, because it attributes behaviors that aren’t sex-linked to women, hence ridiculing women specifically for behaviors that men may often engage in too. Having said that… … Tonight. Grocery store. I roll cart to checkout line at 9:40 PM, a 24 hour grocery store but definitely cutting back on personnel on hand that time of night as you’d expect. Line to my left. Fiftyish person, ostensibly female, comes back to what appears to have been her cart which is the last one on that line. “Okay, I found it, I’m ready now”. Cashier is holding receipts up in the air, cash drawer has been removed from the contraption and is inside some kind of box sitting on the conveyor belt. The light indicating “lane open” is off. “Ma’am”, she says, “this lane is closed”. “No. You can’t do that. I waited a long time to get to the front of the line. I had to get something, I _told_ the cashier that, where is she? I need to get checked out”. “Well this line is closed” “No! You can’t _DO THAT!_ Do you expect me to get behind all those people in… is that the only other line open? Seriously?” She points at the line I am on. I have: one spaghetti squash, 3 bags of ice, 3 boxes of Zatarain’s rice mix, a red onion, 3 limes. There’s a person in front of me who is unloading the last six or seven items of two carts’ full he’s been putting onto the conveyor belt. There’s a person behind me with maybe 12 or 15 items, and he only rolled up in the last 15 seconds or so. “Call a manager! I demand a manager!”, she insists. Cashier picks up the PA system headset thingie and says things, which echo; I presume the manager gets better reception. “This is really unacceptable! Do you know how long I waited on this line?” She manages to make eye contact with the person at the register on the line I’M on. “You saw me, right? I told her I was just going for one item…” After 1 minute 45 seconds, roughly, she says “Where’s the manager?? I thought you were going to call the manager?” Cashier, who is still trying to close out her box tally, picks up headset AGAIN and repeats the PA system call for a manager. I’m at the front of the line and put my stuff on the conveyor. Cashier boops and/or weighs the items, and I bag them, pay, leave. She is by now arguing with the manager who has come to the line. “Ma’am, she was working for an hour over her time without a break. This line was closed…” “An HOUR? I’ve worked for umpteen hours without a break and let me tell you…” I kept shaking my head and rolling my eyes. I did not at any point say the word “Karen”. Ya know, stereotypes originate and catch on for a reason. It isn’t all biased hostility. That gets involved, sure, but at some point the reason they catch on is that, as a generalization, the caricature matches up with some actual experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/270 "2023-08-13T04:07:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I am on record, upthread, as saying I think “Karen” should not be used in this fashion, because it is sexist, because it attributes behaviors that aren’t sex-linked to women, hence ridiculing women specifically for behaviors that men may often engage in too. I think there’s a specific niche that is socially gender- and race-linked, though. Central Park Karen (aka [Amy Cooper](https://www.npr.org/2022/09/23/1124657916/amy-cooper-central-park-job)) exemplifies that niche. Her 911 call infamously described how an African American man was threatening her life; and she told Chris Cooper she was going to do that. Part of the legacy of racism and patriarchy’s intersection is the idea that White men must protect White women from Black men. Some White women have weaponized that chivalrous idea (and I don’t use “chivalrous” in any positive sense) to call White men to violence against Black men. That specific behavior isn’t one that any other identity can really call on in the same way. Think about Amy Cooper’s story: would it hit the same way if Amos Cooper, a White man, threatened to call the cops and say an African American man was threatening him? It lacks that call for chivalrous violence. Certainly White men call 911 with racist bullshit–but in broad strokes they do so as a precursor to their _own_ violence, not so much trying to activate a code of racist patriarchal protection. I’m not at all crazy about the epithet, especially its broadened usage into denigrating any woman who speaks assertively in public. But the gender-specific behavior shouldn’t be completely dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/271 "2023-08-13T05:14:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not at all crazy about the epithet, especially its broadened usage into denigrating any woman who speaks assertively in public. But the gender-specific behavior shouldn’t be completely dismissed. I’ll nod to that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/272 "2023-08-13T12:12:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I kept shaking my head and rolling my eyes. I did not at any point say the word “Karen”. And yet if you had, anyone else observing would have nodded their head and chuckled. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/273 "2023-08-13T23:36:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I feel absolutely zero embarrassment when I use the word to refer to White women weaponizing their racial privilege to harass and endanger Black people. Zero. Uh huh. How about actual people named Karen who haven’t done anything wrong? Do you feel anything toward them? Or is it just their bad luck for being named that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/274 "2023-08-14T05:13:54Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > How about actual people named Karen who haven’t done anything wrong? What about them? I married one, and have two cousins named that… Although, everyone I know by the name pronounces it very differently from the American pronunciation we use for the pejorative, so there’s a distance to it. > [@Biffster](#): > > is it just their bad luck for being named that? Just as unlucky as the Chads of this world. I have a nephew named Chad… ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/275 "2023-08-14T05:43:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just as unlucky as the Chads of this world. There’s even a whole country named Chad! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/276 "2023-08-14T05:53:52Z")
I have a cousin named Karen. She pronounces it like that. And she’s just the kind of white boomer woman who could easily weapon’s her privilege. She doesn’t do that, she’s a very decent human being. She’s also a powerful woman who might look threatening to a man who doesn’t like the idea of powerful women. So she could easily be called “a Karen” in the newer meaning of the word. I haven’t asked her how she feels about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/277 "2023-08-14T15:00:35Z")
I started a thread using the phrase “star bellied sneetches”. It was closed, incorrectly deemed it existed only as a parody, which was only partly true. In fact, the term “star bellied sneetch” is an excellent synonym for Karen, with all the implications of overzealousness, weaponization of privilege, lack of insight and general meme-ability. I don’t think a general word has enough to do with a specific name to confuse most people. But it’s a better and more original term, so I’m going to use that. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/278 "2023-08-14T20:26:10Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I started a thread using the phrase “star bellied sneetches”. It was closed, incorrectly deemed it existed only as a parody, which was only partly true. IMHO, if you started that thread in the Pit and linked back to here, there would have been no problem. The Pit is the natural habitat of parody threads. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/279 "2023-08-14T20:53:39Z")
People have different opinions, of course, but I did not start it in the pit because the thread was not meant to be insulting to anyone. I believe the terms are basically interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/280 "2023-08-14T23:55:00Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > In fact, the term “star bellied sneetch” is an excellent synonym for Karen, with all the implications of overzealousness, weaponization of privilege, lack of insight and general meme-ability. It’s also gender neutral. I’m in. I love the sneetches. They, like most humans, are redeemable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=15)