# Resolved, that using "karen" as a pejorative is off limits **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430 "2023-07-23T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/41 "2023-07-24T05:05:39Z")
Karen is a useful term - when used as originally intended, when the usage originated on Black Twitter. Broadening the usage to mean “any entitled asshole” is just another case of appropriation. If that broader sense of the word goes, I won’t shed any tears. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/42 "2023-07-24T05:11:06Z")
Note I’m not defending the term. I don’t like it, my feeling is similar to @Superdude in saying: > [@Superdude](#): > > I think it’s played out. It’s lost whatever effectiveness it once possessed. It’s cliché, and at this point it’s unoriginal. It’s not a term I choose to use. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/43 "2023-07-24T05:21:17Z")
I groan every time I hear that pejorative used because it makes the user look like they think they’re being clever by using some hip code; like the whole Brandon thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/44 "2023-07-24T05:59:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That said, it’s a description of a real sort of person, and it’s often useful to be able to talk about that sort of person in terms that others will understand. So is “Bitch.” > [@Chronos](#): > > So, if we don’t use the term “Karen” for this type of person, what’s a better alternative? Asshole. See, not sexist at all. > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I’m okay with the gender-neutral “self-entitled asshole.” Even better. I bow to you! > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Karen also refers to a specific ethnic group. Which makes the term racist. > [@TriPolar](#): > > None of the person I know named Karen objects to the slang term. Every woman I know with that name finds it hurtful. And others in this thread agree. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > If you were to instead say “Karen is a gendered insult and we should be avoiding those,” I think more people would agree. Fine. But doesn’t that mean sexist? > [@Superdude](#): > > While I don’t think it should be banned, I think it’s played out. I would hope so, but we just had a long thread using it. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > It is not highly denigrating against women… One could say the same thing about “bitch”. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s meant to be hurtful. Exactly and thank you. It is hurtful to all those fine females, etc named “Karen”. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I don’t see how it’s bigoted since it can be, and is, applied to every possible ethnic group under the Sun. Read the thread I lined. Several/many even defined it "_as by definition she is pretty much universally agreed to be AWFL (Affluent White Female Liberal)."_ or iki entry claims ‘Karen is \*_a pejorative term used as slang for a middle-class white woman_ . > [@Moriarty](#): > > And words shouldn’t be banned. Well, we have banned several here, depending on context. If you post “that N\*\*\*\*r congressman is …” you will get warned if not more, same as calling some female politician, etc a "bitch. Sure, if you want to “discuss the use of the N word in Huckleberry Finn” and use the word in full, that could be okay. maybe. > [@Atamasama](#): > > No it’s not. The fact that _some_ people turned it into a gendered insult doesn’t mean everyone did. Sure. But people have called males a “bitch” too, fairly often. It is just usually gendered and sexist. Or even the C-word. > [@Atamasama](#): > > Showing usage of the term as a non-gendered insult invalidates that claim. I can show both “bitch” and the C-word as a non-gendered insult. It is interesting to see how many of the same people that lined up here in ATMB to complain about “bitch” and the C-word, to become utter hypocrites in the fame of “Karen”-- “because it’s useful”. 🙄 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/45 "2023-07-24T05:59:20Z")
The problem with the OP is that while yes Karen describes women I see Kevin or Chad describing men all of the time as well so I don’t agree that it is sexist is that there are men’s forms as well in use that are just as dispariging. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/46 "2023-07-24T07:12:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “because it’s useful” This is how language works, though. When a term like “Karen” catches on, it exposes a gap in the vernacular. It is _not_ strictly synonymous with “bitch.” It’s not used as a one-for-one substitute that is “less profane.” The term “Karen” connotes a _very specific_ personality type, of someone who feels entitlement and who uses status to manipulate people they perceive as inferior, often with an edge of cruelty and/or condescension, frequently because the person is not him/herself high status and enjoys leveraging what minor status or class advantages they do possess. This is a particular kind of person. We all recognize this behavior, and yet we did not previously have a single word to use as shorthand for labeling the behavior. (And it is, indeed, _behavior_ which is being so labeled, not an innate characteristic like race, so the appeal to equivalence regarding bigotry is nonsense.) And so, when a word appears which concisely and efficiently captures a collectively understood phenomenon, _of course_ that word will stick in the cultural vernacular. Coin a different term which summarizes the long descriptive paragraph above in a single snappy word, and “Karen” can be replaced. “Bitch,” as mentioned, is not it, because it lacks the connotative specificity that caused Karen to take off. Until such a word is coined, the argument criticizing the term is swimming against the very stiff tide of simple linguistic utilitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/47 "2023-07-24T07:20:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which makes the term racist. Not every pejorative term that is linked to racial group is racist. Calling some White Supremacist asshole a “Klansman” isn’t a racist pejorative, neither is calling a White woman weaponizing her privilege against black kids selling lemonade “Karen”. It’s not racist to point out what White Supremacists do. Or call them names while doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/48 "2023-07-24T09:35:58Z")
I am in favor of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/49 "2023-07-24T10:38:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > More or less it is taking the place of “bitch” as used as a pejorative towards women only. In some instances it’s taking the place of a word far stronger than that! > [@TriPolar](#): > > None of the person I know named Karen objects to the slang term. The 3 I know take it with very good humor. One even sent me a link to some funny jokes. > **[Top Funny Karen Jokes](https://www.keeplaughingforever.com/post/top-funny-karen-jokes)** > > Unless you have been sleeping under a rock lately you will have heard the term "Karen" being used. Basically a Karen is a lady who makes it her business to complain and make other people's business her problem! We have put together a collection of... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/50 "2023-07-24T11:28:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Every woman I know with that name finds it hurtful. And others in this thread agree. Not everyone. Perhaps they were being ironic and you didn’t understand. If not perhaps you should explain irony to them. > [@pkbites](#): > > The 3 I know take it with very good humor. > One even sent me a link to some funny jokes. My whole life I have endured people using my first name as a joke because it was the same name as a well known TV character. I never acted like a Karen about it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/51 "2023-07-24T12:06:00Z")
Part of what made “Karen” catch is that it IS is so generic that it could (and DID) get transposed to various contexts and casts of characters. (Nobody says someone “is being a Zuleyka”, do they?) “Karen” by now IMO has jumped the bounds that it is specifically and exclusively a White, Middle Class, Woman. I’m for just letting it run its trendy period and letting it fade back, and meanwhile judge it in context whether actually being used as a term of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/52 "2023-07-24T12:06:32Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > I am in favor of free speech. So am I, but that’s not relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/53 "2023-07-24T13:18:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I have a cousin and a family friend both named “Karen”, and both of whom are perfectly nice, reasonable people. There are people named “Karen”. There are obnoxious people (male and female) whose behavior leads others to call them “a Karen”. Two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/54 "2023-07-24T14:30:40Z")
I read about someone somewhere building a house out of straw, but it didn’t last too long. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/55 "2023-07-24T14:36:25Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What the hell does “ease drop” mean, I wonder. And where do they spell the word as “taddletale?” I guess the Urban Dictionary allows anyone who wants to to post completely unedited. Maybe not the best source for a cite. Yes, and then people upvote or downvote it. You can get a sense of what contemporary English speakers or, more narrowly, users of Urban Dictionary find valid definitions in their experience. I think it’s a perfectly cromulent tool if you know how to use it. I’ve never been led far astray by a UD defintion. Once you get to the downvoted ones, then it’s either made-up or very niche usage. That particular definition has a 2:1 like:dislike ratio, which isn’t the greatest, in my experience, but is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/56 "2023-07-24T14:41:45Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The problem with the OP is that while yes Karen describes women I see Kevin or Chad describing men all of the time as well so I don’t agree that it is sexist is that there are men’s forms as well in use that are just as dispariging. And just as stupid. (And what the hell is a “Kevin”? I haven’t heard that used in a disparaging sense. We also had “Trixie” back in the day for the specific neighborhood of Lincoln Park here in Chicago, but I don’t think I’ve ever met a person (nick)named Trixie in my life.) The Karens I know don’t happen to much like this whole “Karen” business. I avoid it because it’s just not my style. I can use childish epithets, but I just don’t like using people’s names. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/57 "2023-07-24T15:19:17Z")
I have never been a fan of using any specific given name as a pejorative. People’s given names are how we self-identify, are very personal (even though we may share them with multitudes), and one’s name becoming shorthand for any negative behavior invariably ensnares people who are blameless of the offending behavior. And in this case, it would be a Catch-22 for any white woman to _complain_ about the term because doing so reinforces the stereotype. On the other hand… Black people have endured a history of vile treatment by white people. And it is interesting just how upset white people get when they are on the receiving end of a tiny fraction of the treatment they’ve been dishing out for centuries. That doesn’t make it right, of course, but one might hope it would engender more compassion amongst “free speech warriors” for how words _can_ actually hurt. And not for nothing, until the day comes when having the name Karen at the top of a resume [denies you from being considered for employment](https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/08/18/name-discrimination-jobs), I honestly believe there are far more serious name-based discrimination worthy of our concern. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/58 "2023-07-24T16:04:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > bigoted and sexist > [@DrDeth](#): > > it is used only against women I’m not convinced that the term is bigoted or sexist. It is disparaging a type of obnoxious behavior. If the reality is that in our society that behavior is most often observed in privileged White women, it is not inherently sexist to condemn it where we see it. Just as it is not racist to talk about “White privilege”. The term is only used to refer to White people, because that’s where the privilege _is_. I do think “Karen” could cross the line into misogyny if it became overused and extended to put down _any_ kind of normal assertive behavior. Is that happening? I think that would be analogous to slurs that harp on female promiscuity - condemning women for behavior that is deemed normal and perfectly acceptable in men. But in the original sense of bullying entitlement, I think we’d condemn similar obnoxious behavior in men too. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/59 "2023-07-24T16:31:13Z")
Well there goes **Barbie** then. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/60 "2023-07-24T16:58:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Several/many even defined it "_as by definition she is pretty much universally agreed to be AWFL (Affluent White Female Liberal)_ LIberal? To me Karens are almost always conservative. Karens scream if you tell them to put on a mask, want books banned, and call the police if they spot a Black person nearby. The only liberal type of Karen I know of is the kind that wants to see the manager. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=4)