# Resolved, that using "karen" as a pejorative is off limits **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430 "2023-07-23T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/101 "2023-07-25T09:06:54Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Can’t be too much of a racial slur in the US. I’ve known two Micks in my time, both stereotypical Irish with red hair and freckles and obvious Irish derived names. The fact that it’s a common Irish name is surely the origin of its use as a derogatory term. It’s in current use in the U.K. Perhaps not a _severe_ slur, not to a point where a parent might hesitate to name their child Michael, but it’s certainly derogatory. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/102 "2023-07-25T09:10:43Z")
Making a worthwhile contribution to society, I see. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/103 "2023-07-25T09:46:06Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@alovem](#): > > Making a worthwhile contribution to society, I see The post was already moderated. Don’t attack other users in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/104 "2023-07-25T09:49:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because this isn’t about free speach, it’s about defining speach Oh, so it is not like mistreating some people. It is more like defining some people as not really human. Seems to me that telling people what they can say where is about free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/105 "2023-07-25T10:40:39Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Seems to me that telling people what they can say where is about free speech. What’s your point? This is certainly a thread about what you are “free” to say on this Board, yes. Do you think you should be free to say _anything_ here, without consequences? All communities have norms of what is acceptable and what is not, enforced by informal or formal means. We’re discussing a specific case here. Your vague implication that “freedom of speech” is some kind of absolute principle that settles the matter is unhelpful. Freedom is _never_ absolute, whether of speech or action. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/106 "2023-07-25T12:08:30Z")
**Moderator Note** Let’s not get sidetracked into a discussion about free speech, especially since it doesn’t apply to message boards like ours. The topic of this thread is whether or not “Karen” as a pejorative should be off-limits. Focus on that instead, please. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/107 "2023-07-25T14:17:09Z")
deleted after modnote (had it in edit for quite a while) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/108 "2023-07-25T14:19:35Z")
Let’s make it equal. If we get rid of Karen, how 'bout we get rid of “mansplain”. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/109 "2023-07-25T14:28:38Z")
Used 13 times in 2023 on the SDMB. More often than I expected. But again, we’re not getting rid of any words to my knowledge. Using “Karen” is lazy and could be abused, but I see no reason to bump this up to the modloop. We don’t really want to have a wordlist. I think the argument against its use is reasonable but poorly presented in the OP of this thread. * * * * * * Worth repeating: > [@Atamasama](#): > > I do think that it’s a term that can be used as a gendered insult, and we already have a moratorium on misogyny. So if it’s used that way I don’t have any issue with moderation. But I don’t think it’s automatic, and since this forum doesn’t have a “banned words” list, I don’t see why we need to start now. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/110 "2023-07-25T14:33:45Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > If we get rid of Karen, how 'bout we get rid of “mansplain”. Howsabout instead we leave things as they are, but use the terms with care. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/111 "2023-07-25T14:39:06Z")
I agree. My point (poorly made) was there are a ton of gendered insults that we use all the time and most of them are no big deal in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/112 "2023-07-25T15:17:17Z")
I think that’s the answer Karen isn’t like a racial slur, or even a misogynistic slur, but it can still be used in a misogynistic way. So moderate misogynistic usage, and not usages that aren’t misogynistic (or racist). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/113 "2023-07-25T15:59:44Z")
Can we make fun of people using it? Maybe call them Michaels (from The Office) as they think they’re being clever like he did always saying “that’s what she said” It may not always be misogynistic, but it is almost always cringey and dumb. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/114 "2023-07-25T16:12:23Z")
You have to be careful to insult the post and not the poster unless you reserve the making fun of for the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/115 "2023-07-25T16:47:51Z")
So we can make fun of the use but not the user … ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/116 "2023-07-25T16:51:27Z")
I feel like “Karen” is as potent a burn as “Democrat” (instead of “Democratic”). Read: it isn’t. It’s just kind of a **[snarl word](https://www.thoughtco.com/snarl-words-and-purr-words-1692796)**. I also think that “mansplain” is far more directed to the action itself while “Karen” is far more ad hominem in nature. Though I have nowhere near enough energy to get exercised about any of the above. I’ll assent elegantly to the majority on this one 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/117 "2023-07-25T17:27:10Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I also think that “mansplain” is far more directed to the action itself while “Karen” is far more ad hominem in nature. That’s an interesting proposition to discuss, but I’m not sure it holds up. Consider that it’s easy to imagine “male Karens” but I can’t quite conceptualize a woman mansplaining. In any case, like you I am not personally worked up one way or the other, and can accept whatever the consensus is. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/118 "2023-07-25T17:47:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it was not either of those things. It was descriptive. Every pejorative in the history of language has been termed by their users as descriptive. That’s exactly why sexism and racism are so insidious. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/119 "2023-07-25T18:05:57Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Every pejorative in the history of language has been termed by their users as descriptive. That’s exactly why sexism and racism are so insidious. You go ahead and jump on Black Twitter and tell them they’re racist. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/120 "2023-07-25T18:29:50Z")
FWIW I personally think that societal power imbalances give contextual meanings to racist comments even if they are racist. But more so, I’ve never found any good comes of telling anyone that they are racist. It is hard enough to discuss that what someone says or does has racist impact (which does not mean the person is racist). Lastly, that said, my understanding is that the original usage was more calling out or at least identifying clueless unaware white privilege, which could present differently by gender, and I can’t count that as racist. Clearly that is no longer the typical usage; it is just appropriated to mean clueless abuse of privilege of any sort and old. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=7)