# Resolved, that using "karen" as a pejorative is off limits **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 23, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430 "2023-07-23T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/161 "2023-07-28T22:54:50Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > PCaring PKarens pcascade pcalumny pcontinuously pcovering pcowering pclerks. This is why so many people are anti-PC. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/162 "2023-07-29T04:43:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One of the mods explained that. Now it is a pejorative noun, not a name, unless you think that the karen you are complaining about is actually named Karen? Doesn’t really matter what a mod explained unofficially. Until they officially make a ruling, Karen can be used. I don’t think it needs to be banned _here_, it already is hardly used. However, if you are going to use it, you should capitalize it like everyone else does. You are the only person that that tries to use it as a(n)\* pejorative noun and not capitalize it on purpose. It’s a proper name, like Chad or Stacy. You starting a thread on it is only prolonging its use on the board and in real life. \*Take that mods! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/163 "2023-07-29T12:11:52Z")
I know, I know!!! Let’s stop calling them Karens and start calling them Streisands instead. 😁 Good bet she was kinda hard on the help, and at age ~80 is mostly out of public life. She’s a poster child with fewer side effects than the OP’s (silly) objections on behalf of the millions of younger more ordinary women named Karen. I’m all for harm reduction when we can achieve it without undue cost to the basic human need for snark aimed at self-proclaimed jerks. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/164 "2023-07-29T13:03:54Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@DrDeth](#): > > Your motive here i suspect, and I think it has nothing whatsoever to do with grammar. Attack the post, not the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/165 "2023-07-29T14:01:22Z")
Here’s my take on the Karen situation, and the reason I don’t believe we should have a problem with it: What is the action that Karens and Kevins are typically associated with in the meme?: folks that rant about typically inconsequential actions to and about people they don’t like and feel superior to (often, but not exclusively concerning minorities/protected classes/people with less perceived power than they). These rants are typically expressed in an exaggerated, self-entitled, holier-than-thou tone. The word “_sputtering_” comes to mind. “_Raving lunatic_” also comes to mind. The underlying message is often: you are the wrong color, the wrong age, or the wrong sex and you are doing something I (and my kind) don’t like. Sometimes they hit the trifecta. Example (translated for proper meaning): _you Black Female Kids don’t belong in my White neighborhood selling your over-priced Girl scout cookies—get out of here, or I’ll call the White cops._ That’s racism, ageism, and misogyny all wrapped into one—not to mention cookie-ism. So, should this despicable action itself be protected? No, _“self-entitled asshole behavior”_ is not, nor should be a protected class. So, the problem is with the names Karen and Kevin. Is Karen (or Kevin) typically associated with a particular group of people? Yes, they are. Karen and Kevin are names typically associated with _White_ people. White people are those who typically (but not always) exhibit the despicable self-entitled behavior to which the memes are used. However, “White” is not, nor should be a protected class. Whites have a history of being the oppressors, not the oppressed. They don’t need protection. Are Karen and Kevin the only names that could have caught on, in meme-fashion, to refer to self-entitled assholes? No, other typically White names, like Julia, or Englebert, could easily be substituted, but they each have 3 syllables, not 2, like Karen and Kevin. People are lazy, so shorter words typically catch on first. You could of course use Jules or Bert, but nicknames just don’t have the same clout. Maybe Bob and Jane would be better still. Certainly, Karen is typically understood as a White name (hence its use in this meme), but it’s not exclusively a White name. There are famous Black Karens, including journalist Karen Attiah, Representative Karen Bass, reality star Karen Huger, gospel singer Karen Clark Sheard, and actress Karen Malina White. And there are of course many Black Kevins, too many to list. There are also other mostly White names commonly associated with negative behaviors. For example, Bubba, for a dim-witted and/or racist Texan, and Jethro, for a dim-witted, often inbred, often xenophobic Appalachian. Bad behaviors and characteristics to be sure, but not bad names per se. If I meet someone with those names, I may think of them as being from one of those general areas, but I don’t associate them with the associated bad behavior unless they prove otherwise. Actions speak louder than words. I’m not for a second suggesting that it’s OK to use other ethnic names often used to portray negative characteristics in non-majority groups. Using a typically Jewish name to suggest stingy, Asian names to suggest not well-endowed, Indian names to suggest unhygienic, and so on, are wrong, despicable, harmful, and should be banned from our language. I know a few Karens. Most think the meme is either funny or they simply don’t care one way or the other. One does care, but she’s a self-entitled asshole, so ergo… Does anyone with intelligence really think calling someone who shares their first name an asshole actually harms them in any way? Are people actually that literal, or ignorant? I can think of one group of people to whom this may innocently apply, but they are busy getting ready to start kindergarten in the Fall. Adults aren’t that ignorant unless they are quite…ignorant. Intellectually disabled individuals are a protected class, willfully ignorant people are not. I know some people who claim to know people named Karen or Kevin who take great offense to the meme. I suggest they are either wrong or blowing it way out of proportion. Misplaced white-knighting, making them appear concerned. If a significant number of people on these boards named Karen or Kevin came forth and said they actually do take offense, then I’d retract my position. I myself have a first name commonly associated with something unpleasant, and funny looking, but I just roll with it. For the sake of anonymity, I’m not going to say what it is. But, it’s something people hate to get in the mail. And it’s found on the faces of waterfowl. But, I think if a double-blind study was done, with a random sampling of people named Karen, asking if they take offense to the Karen meme, I believe the results would be something like: 95% wouldn’t care; 3% would think it’s funny in a self-deprecating way (_hey, they called that asshole a Karen, that’s my name!, hardy har har_), and 2 would care—one should perhaps seek help for over-sensitivity, the other is an actual self-entitled asshole, so, of course, they’d take offense. The problem with sweating the small, non-issues, is that it takes focus off _real_ cases of xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/166 "2023-07-29T15:13:49Z")
Apropos of nothing at all: Duck walks into a pharmacist and says, “Give me some ChapStick and put it on my bill.” As you were … ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/167 "2023-07-29T15:28:50Z")
I find that remark highly offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/168 "2023-07-29T15:46:03Z")
> [@Galactus](#): > > To answer a meme with a meme. I haven’t been following this thread very closely, but this meme appeared today: [[Album] imgur.com ![](https://i.imgur.com/3frWXLO.jpeg?fb "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/a/IRDNl8N) If you don’t want to click the image: > **Rowdy** is irritated that ‘we’re in the middle of a pandemic and there are a bunch of White women complaining about being called “Karens”.’ > > **Kitty Never Going Out Again** (whose real name is apparently Karen) tells **Rowdy** off. > > **Rowdy** replies, ‘I’m a brown immigrant. Come at me when you have some real problems, Karen.’ This is pretty much how I feel. There are people out there who have _real_ problems. Do I like it that people use my name as a term for ‘toilet’? No. Am I going to call for a ban on calling toilets ‘Johns’? No. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/169 "2023-07-29T16:54:11Z")
A poor guy trying to be taken seriously who’s Mom named him “Rowdy”? Now that’s just cruel. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/170 "2023-07-29T16:55:24Z")
People took Rowdy Yates seriously. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/171 "2023-07-29T16:55:36Z")
So being a brown immigrant means that they can be an ass or a bully to others, because they are in a disadvantaged group? No one else has any right to complain? A white middle aged woman should just shut the fuck up? Call asshole entitled behavior what it is, if it is. Using “Karen” (or “karen” … really capitalizing or not is worth arguing over? What Chronoses. 😀) is by default behavior with misogynistic and race stereotyping impacts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/172 "2023-07-29T17:04:46Z")
So the name has nothing to do with busybodies carin’ too much about what others are doing? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/173 "2023-07-29T17:11:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So being a brown immigrant means that they can be an ass or a bully to others, because they are in a disadvantaged group? No one else has any right to complain? A white middle aged woman should just shut the fuck up? No. Complaining about how your name is being used is nothing compared to the indignities people who are not of your privileged socioeconomic/ethnic background have to put up with. It’s like a person saying, ‘My house burned down and my cats died!’ and then having a Person of Privilege saying, ‘But I wasn’t able to get a nail appointment!’ – John, who’s name is used for ‘toilet’. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/174 "2023-07-29T17:22:02Z")
So what? No says that it is. Should the word “cunt” be allowed too, because being called that is not as bad as “the indignities people who are not of your privileged socioeconomic/ethnic background have to put up with”? There is no contest at play where the member of the winning more oppressed group (or self appointed others) gets a bye to be asses to others. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/175 "2023-07-29T17:31:13Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > There are also other mostly White names commonly associated with negative behaviors. For example, Bubba, for a dim-witted and/or racist Texan, and Jethro, for a dim-witted, often inbred, often xenophobic Appalachian. I now look forward to at least two more ATMB threads ~~demanding to see a mod~~ requesting a fucking word be totally banned. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/176 "2023-07-29T17:35:03Z")
Yeah, but now you’re just being an **[Archibald](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Archibald)**, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/177 "2023-07-29T17:42:51Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I now look forward to at least two more ATMB threads ~~demanding to see a mod~~ requesting a fucking word be totally banned. Pretty soon you won’t be able to swing a cat without hitting a banned word thread. Or is that evocative idiom now excessively _outré_ too? 😿 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/178 "2023-07-29T17:48:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Or is that evocative idiom now excessively _outré_ too? 😿 Has the cat light itself on fire? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/179 "2023-07-29T17:56:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This is pretty much how I feel. There are people out there who have _real_ problems. I 1100% agree. We need to make a list of all the pejoratives used anywhere in the world and rank them by scurrilousness. We then should post the list everywhere so it’s easily accessible. After that, any time anybody complains about any name-calling, we can just refer to the list. Ha, you can say. You only got called a #264. I’ve been called a #262. You have no right to complain, you silly #197. Oops. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430/180 "2023-07-29T18:23:26Z")
I first heard the term melanemic to describe white people on the Karen Hunter show at UrbanView sxm Kinda clever actually and I have no qualms with that, honkies otoh should be taboo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-that-using-karen-as-a-pejorative-is-off-limits/987430.md?page=10)