# Resolved: The American Consumer exploits third-world workers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345 "2010-05-13T20:59:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/41 "2010-05-14T16:57:34Z")
Don’t be absurd give me a number. A living wage varies from country to country. But cost of living can be determined. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/42 "2010-05-14T16:58:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Fair working wage. As long as there are countries without rules on what an employer can do, the companies will go there. It would be interesting if we had a world minimum wage and equal employment laws. Then work would go to quality instead of price. It is a fair working wage, in the context of their local economy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/43 "2010-05-14T17:56:39Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Don’t be absurd give me a number. A living wage varies from country to country. But cost of living can be determined. So if the factories pay over the prevailing wage rate in the area, you’re okay with it? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/44 "2010-05-14T19:33:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Don’t be absurd give me a number. A living wage varies from country to country. But cost of living can be determined. So “fair wage” should be based on cost of living, right? Employees in Idaho have a lower base salary than those in Manhattan, to adjust for the cost of living. An area where the cost of living is next to nothing should thus set their minimum wage just above next to nothing. The concept of “fair wage” is fine as long as it’s applied correctly. And I think the factory conditions are going to reflect the quality of life available in a given region, and not the other way around. Like I said, if beatings are considered acceptable in the streets, they’re going to be considered acceptable in the factories, regardless of who owns the factory. Ditto for all the other abuses that manifest themselves in sweat-shops. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/45 "2010-05-17T19:52:38Z")
I have a great idea about how to determine a fair wage. Instead of liberal do-gooders in the West setting it at the level that makes them feel the best about themselves, why not let people in those countries determine it? Since different areas within the country can differ we will let each area determine it. Since cities or towns within the same area can differ, let the fair wage be determined at the most local level possible. Since people vary in their needs, skills and wants why not let each worker determine a fair wage? The worker knows what his other options are and will only take the job if he believes it is better than his other options. If a worker believes his wages are fair, who are we arrogantly proclaim we know his welfare better than he does? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/46 "2010-05-17T20:32:11Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If a worker believes his wages are fair, who are we arrogantly proclaim we know his welfare better than he does? This is an excellent point, and it’s exactly why workers have traditionally been so opposed to minimum wage laws forced on them by an uncaring conspiracy of business interests. It’s why so many impoverished folks in third-world countries are so violently and vocally opposed to living wage campaigns. Or maybe it’s that a worker in an economy with too few jobs is in competition with other workers for the limited jobs, and this competition drives wages to nearly zero; workers benefit from having this element of competition moderated (by minimum wage) or eliminated (by unionization). I know that certain conservative do-gooders in the West would feel just awesome about themselves if all worker protections were eliminated, but that actually wouldn’t be the first choice of most workers. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/47 "2010-05-18T01:54:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is an excellent point, and it’s exactly why workers have traditionally been so opposed to minimum wage laws forced on them by an uncaring conspiracy of business interests. It’s why so many impoverished folks in third-world countries are so violently and vocally opposed to living wage campaigns. > > I know that certain conservative do-gooders in the West would feel just awesome about themselves if all worker protections were eliminated, but that actually wouldn’t be the first choice of most workers. As usual, you are so full opf snark you completel;y fail to see what’s obivous. Workers with jobs now almost always demand protections for them. But those without them want access, not protections which will block them out. Furthermore, I definitely don’t see everyday workers being terribly fond of “living wage campaigns”, precisely because it doesn’t have anything to do with their situation. They don’t want a “living wage”. They want a _better_ alternative. Wait! In fact, that’s almsot exactlty what they are getting: a better alternative to theuir current situation. And in fact, damn near everywhere western companies go, new jobs and industry spring up and people get richer. The only exceptions are where government gets so stupid it actually destroys wealth (Argentina, Venezuala, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/48 "2010-05-18T02:10:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Let’s say you are right. So what? If you accepted the OP’s title as a premise perhaps you wouldn’t begrudge the Third World’s animosity towards us, then perhaps for moral high ground you’d seek to alleviate that imbalance. Not saying _YOU’D_ do so, just that the argument has merit, which you’re implying it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/49 "2010-05-18T02:24:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > First point: _The Americans want the jobs_. The American government wants the jobs. Americans are lining up for the jobs. If there’s any environmental damage, they’ve decided that it’s worth the tradeoff. > > It’s overwhelmingly the case that in countries where there are ‘sweat shops’, the sweat shops are actively lobbied for by those governments. The people line up to get jobs in them. Hell, even after the disaster in Bhopal India, the people of the region said that their greatest fear was that the disaster would cause the factory to shut down. > > In most of these countries, the ‘sweatshop’ jobs are the best to be had anywhere for the average worker. They pay the most and have the best conditions. Not as good as American pay and conditions, but better than the alternatives. > > What you need to understand is that being poor sucks. And I’m not talking about American poor, I’m talking about living in old shipping containers in refuse heaps and making a living either selling your body if you’re female or scraping the parched ground 16 hours a day in the sun to attempt to grow enough to keep you alive until the next day. We’re talking about countries where the average annual income is a few hundred bucks. > > These people are poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and have little infrastructure to offer the world. About all they’ve got is their own labor. But it’s not worth very much, for the previous reasons. So they get paid 50 cents an hour, which represents a doubling of their standard of living. But it’s a start. It’s their comparative advantage. It’s the first rung on the ladder that brings foreign investment, which helps build the infrastructure, which ultimately raises productivity and along with it, wages. > > The process of rising up by starting from sweatshops is not mysterious or hypothetical. Japan was once a nation of sweatshops. When it became too wealthy for that, the sweatshops moved to South Korea. Then Korea became to wealthy for them. Then they moved to Malaysia and Singapore. Now those countries are pricing themselves out of the market for low-cost labor, so their moving to Vietnam, Honduras, and other places where labor is still cheap. > > The alternative? Demand first-world worker protections and minimum wages, and you’ll cut that rung of the ladder out from under them. Then they’ll get to be like Africa or North Korea - perpetually cut off from trade, and perpetually poor. > > But hey, those American union workers will thank you. After all, they’re the ones who are funding the protests and bribing the government to enact trade barriers, so why shouldn’t they get the rewards, hmm? Fantastic post. Quoted for effect. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345/50 "2010-05-18T10:57:18Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > As usual, you are so full opf snark you completel;y fail to see what’s obivous. Workers with jobs now almost always demand protections for them. But those without them want access, not protections which will block them out. > … > The only exceptions are where government gets so stupid it actually destroys wealth (Argentina, Venezuala, etc.) This wouldn’t be a massive contradiction, IF the governments in Argentina and Venezuela weren’t wildly popular with poor people. Given that worker protections are invariably demanded by poor people, where’s your evidence that they’re unpopular with the unemployed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-consumer-exploits-third-world-workers/539345.md?page=2)