# Resolved: The American Pledge of Allegience is immoral **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534 "2009-10-04T08:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/21 "2009-10-04T18:29:21Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > If you completely decry loyalty to your country, then it should be perfectly OK with you to plot against it, to work toward its destruction. It’s sort of implicit in the 2nd Amendment that it is alright to plot against your nation (assuming that your nation deserves it.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/22 "2009-10-04T18:32:49Z")
Apparently the effects of reciting the Pledge are very short-lived, as it is recited anew by many of the same people at each local government meeting. You’d think one time would be enough in your life, or perhaps per year, but no… What can I say to rescind my Pledge recitation, last done when I was young, ignorant, impressionable and brainwashed? Or has it expired? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/23 "2009-10-04T18:36:04Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s sort of implicit in the 2nd Amendment that it is alright to plot against your nation (assuming that your nation deserves it.) [LIST=A] [li]The interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as permitting freeforall gun ownership is relatively recent; SCOTUS rejected the argument as extremist not too long before Edwin Meese’s efforts to mainstream it paid off.[/li][li]Thanks for demonstrating why that interpretation is so off and so clearly wrong.[/li][/LIST] ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/24 "2009-10-04T18:37:15Z")
Making children swear a loyalty oath before they understand the meaning of the oath they are swearing really erodes the sense of loyalty. It tells them that oaths are meaningless. **Isamu** You don’t HAVE to say it at any age, it’s just that most people don’t realize until they are about a Junior in HS that it’s optional. I used to sit and avoid saying it and this bugged kids in my Honors World History class, due to switching schools I took as a Senior what was a sophomore class because it was a Senior class at my old school. The teacher was the basketball coach and was a really cool dude. He understood perfectly. It was an opportunity to teach the sophomores that I was correct that I didn’t have to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/25 "2009-10-04T19:02:57Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > “But Mark, athiests are left out.” And this is so, unless the athiest chooses to define God as the force behind pure science. > > OK it’s pushing it a bit, but it’s not 100% unreasonable. No, it _is_ 100% unreasonable. Science is not a God. At all. Science is not based on faith, it makes no demands of worship or exclusivity, and it does not care whether you believe in it, or even acknowledge it. Science is, at its core, a thought process. No more, no less. We\* do not think of it as God. Some religious people think we think so, but that is because they cannot conceive of not having a God. We shouldn’t have to kowtow to others’ lack of understanding. \*I’m an agnostic, but close enough. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/26 "2009-10-04T19:07:50Z")
N.B.: The [Pledge of Allegiance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance) was not originally written **for** the United States. Christian Socialist [Frances Bellamy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy) wrote it in 1892 as a sort of generical pledge, usable in any sufficiently republican country. As originally written it read, “I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/27 "2009-10-04T20:48:48Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > [LIST=A] > [li]The interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as permitting freeforall gun ownership is relatively recent; SCOTUS rejected the argument as extremist not too long before Edwin Meese’s efforts to mainstream it paid off.[/li][li]Thanks for demonstrating why that interpretation is so off and so clearly wrong.[/li][/LIST] From [The Origins of the Bill of Rights](http://books.google.com/books?id=qFMG7G2opeEC&lpg=PA136&ots=LG_qh0VcL-&dq=Origins%20of%20the%20Bill%20of%20Rights%20%22police%20force%22&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q=&f=false): > [@](#): > > The right to have arms is an inheritance from England[. …] In the twelfth century Henry II had obligated all freemen to possess certain arms, and in the next century Henry III required every subject aged fifteen to fifty, including even landless farmers, to own a weapon other than a knife. […] The reason for this requirement was that in the absence of a regular army and a police force, which was not established until 1829, every man had his duty to watch and ward, standing guard by day and night to confront and capture suspicious persons. […] > > In 1671 Parliament for the first time enacted a statute that deprived almost all Englishmen of the right to have arms […] Charles II undertook further measures to disarm his Whig opposition, and in 1686 his successor, James II, favored Catholic subjects and infuriated Protestants by banning their firearms. Royal attempts to control weapons convinced Englishmen that they must have a right to possess firearms. […] The martyr Algernon Sydney started a cliche when declaring that “swords were given to men that none might be slaves, but such as know not how to use them.” So, too, political theorists John Trenchard and Walter Moyle believed that the surest way to preserve the liberties of the people is to arm them. > > […] Blackstone’s **Commentaries** , the work most frequently cited by Americans, stated that the right “to have” arms was indispensable “to protect and maintain inviolate the three great and primary rights of personal security, personal liberty, and private property.” The Wikipedia similarly states that one purpose of the 2nd Amendment is “deterring undemocratic government”. I don’t believe that anyone could plausibly deny that this was a significant factor. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/28 "2009-10-04T22:00:50Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Well the term allegiance is just another word for commitment. Sorry, but I can’t buy that. Words matter. There is a difference between commitment and allegiance. To anyone who would disagree, I would ask what the Bill O’Reilly types might say if the suggestion were made to swap those two words in the POA. I might say I am committed to living in the U.S., but I can’t swear allegiance to it because the country can (and has) acted stupidly on occasion. Now that doesn’t mean I try to secede every time I disagree, but I may heartily object and act in some manner on those objections. I don’t think that’s allegiance. To me, the word allegiance carries connotations of blind loyalty, and I don’t go in for that. This is a small matter of semantics. But above and beyond that, I agree with those in this thread who make the point that the idea of having a POA in general is just creepy and weird. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/29 "2009-10-04T22:13:15Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > The section under God, was added later and is a bit controversal. I am not exactly happy with it, but it doesn’t define God. It can be any God. Now the argument is “But Mark, athiests are left out.” And this is so, unless the athiest chooses to define God as the force behind pure science. But as said, that doesn’t work; science isn’t a god, and it doesn’t have any “force” behind it. And it assumes that pledging allegiance to a god is a good thing. To me, it’s like requiring children to pledge allegiance to Sauron every morning. Crazy, and extremely evil if actually taken seriously. Especially since regardless of any handwaving about it not being defined as such, we all know that the God in question is the Christian God. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/30 "2009-10-04T22:23:32Z")
You can’t force respect, and you can’t force loyalty. Whether someone is loyal or not is entirely a matter aside from whether they recite the pledge or not. The pledge, in and of itself, seems like no bad thing to me. It’s in the meaning and interpretation of those words where problem may arise, and I don’t see the pledge itself as actually changing those things; people will just read into them what they believe to be the case. As far as the “under God” part, it’s pretty clearly a reference to a particular deity. And beyond leaving out atheists, it also leaves out pantheists, deists, and pretty much everyone else who isn’t a monotheist (though, granted, the considerable majority falls into that category). As a statement of loyalty, i’d say that’s a pretty good point of contention; uniformity can breed unity, but only for everyone who already agrees. One of the problems of it being considered a recognised, standardised sign of loyalty is that the lack of it has become sort of an anti-sign of loyalty. One example of loyalty seems to have become for many one of the only acceptable ones. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/31 "2009-10-05T00:06:35Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > As an American abroad, there is no borderline about it. I cringe every time I hear the USA! USA! USA! chants that are no different from any of the dictatorships around the world. I couldn’t agree more. Watching displays of dumb-ass knee-jerk patriotism is one of the most difficult things about being an American abroad. Watching the debate on health care is probably number 2. Explaining either of the above is number 3. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/32 "2009-10-05T00:09:44Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Sorry, but I can’t buy that. Words matter. > > There is a difference between commitment and allegiance. To anyone who would disagree, I would ask what the Bill O’Reilly types might say if the suggestion were made to swap those two words in the POA. > > I might say I am committed to living in the U.S., but I can’t swear allegiance to it because the country can (and has) acted stupidly on occasion. Now that doesn’t mean I try to secede every time I disagree, but I may heartily object and act in some manner on those objections. I don’t think that’s allegiance. To me, the word allegiance carries connotations of blind loyalty, and I don’t go in for that. [QUOTE=Lewis Carroll] `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.’ [/QUOTE] I thought it might be important to know what the word “allegience” actually does mean, so I looked it up. Here are some of the definitions I found: > [@](#): > > the loyalty of a citizen to his or her government or of a subject to his or her sovereign. > [@](#): > > loyalty and support for a ruler, country, group or belief > [@](#): > > the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government > [@](#): > > devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause and the meaning from whence the word derives: > [@](#): > > the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord So, it basically means loyalty—which reasonably invites the question of what that entails—but I see no connotations of **blind** loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/33 "2009-10-05T01:21:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > From [The Origins of the Bill of Rights](http://books.google.com/books?id=qFMG7G2opeEC&lpg=PA136&ots=LG_qh0VcL-&dq=Origins%20of%20the%20Bill%20of%20Rights%20%22police%20force%22&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q=&f=false): > > The Wikipedia similarly states that one purpose of the 2nd Amendment is “deterring undemocratic government”. > > I don’t believe that anyone could plausibly deny that this was a significant factor. Cool! When do I get my shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles 'cause I don’t think my rifle is going to be much use against the black helicopters. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/34 "2009-10-05T01:58:10Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Cool! When do I get my shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles 'cause I don’t think my rifle is going to be much use against the black helicopters. Well, you know how people always say that the NRA is harping on “snowballing legislation”… ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/35 "2009-10-05T03:19:08Z")
I think the pledge is just _creepy_. Getting school kids to say it each and every morning, like we’re afraid that the commies may have had some sway over them since yesterday, that just creeps me out. Did you all see the video from a couple of months ago where a congress critter was having a local meeting and that crazy lady was grilling him about Obama’s birth certificate? It was getting chaotic, then someone suggested that they do a group pledge, and everyone in the room suddenly stood and put their hand over their heart and started reciting the pledge. It was like something out of a Stephen King novel (I assume, I’ve never actually read one). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/36 "2009-10-05T03:53:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I remember Bill O’Reilly going nuts one time because of a Molson Canadian commercial in which a Canadian (in a Canadian commercial for a Canadian product) sang the praises of being a Canadian and called Canada “the best part of North America.” O’Reilly actually took this as an outrageous insult and brought the actor on his show to browbeat him about it. It was the epitome of Ugly American arrogance and stupidity. We’re not all like that, but, unfortunately, we’re indoctrinated from the cradle to think that kind of attitude is normal and right. Is there a youtube of this? or do you at least know the name of the actor. Because I think I’d find a clip of that show really really funny. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/37 "2009-10-05T04:06:01Z")
Meh. We sang our country’s national anthem every day in primary school. Even at that young age, we knew what was up and agreed with eachother that it was pretty stupid. “Australians all eat ostriches, for we are young and free!” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/38 "2009-10-05T05:11:36Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > Is there a youtube of this? or do you at least know the name of the actor. Because I think I’d find a clip of that show really really funny. I can’t find anything on Google. It was a long time ago – before youtube existed. [This is the wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Canadian) about the Molson “I am Canadian” ad campaign, but there’s nothing in it about the O’Reilly appearance. I distinctly remember it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/39 "2009-10-05T06:33:26Z")
I don’t think that a public school teacher can _legally_ require a student to recite the POA now, but since teachers, administrators, and students are not at all well-informed about the right not to be forced to say it, recitation continues in many schools. I’ve been out of the environment for a long time, however, and that may not be the latest word. The irony is that someone who was subversive to the government wouldn’t hesitate to take the Pledge anyway. > [@](#): > > Chalk up a win for the Religious Right on this one. There was no active “Religious Right” that pushed for the inclusion of this phrase in the Pledge. I don’t recall such a division among the Christians in general until a decade or two later. I am open to correction if I am mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534/40 "2009-10-05T08:37:06Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The irony is that someone who was subversive to the government wouldn’t hesitate to take the Pledge anyway. Yes; given why the “under God” part was put in I have visions of people back then thinking communists are like vampires who’ll ignite if they say “God”. “..under God..” _FWOOSH!!_ “Aieeeee!!” “Musta been a Commie.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-american-pledge-of-allegience-is-immoral/512534.md?page=3)