# Resolved: The directors of the CIA and FBI should resign, or be fired **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237 "2001-10-18T16:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/21 "2001-10-20T04:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > At any rate, if someone’s going to get axed for this, the fix is probably already in. I mix a pretty mean martini, too. Would anyone like an olive with that metaphor? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/22 "2001-10-20T04:44:33Z")
**GIGObuster** [Bin Laden](http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwhtr01.html) killed 19 Americans in [Saudi Arabia](http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/06/23/terrorism.caution/) in 1996. You were saying about very few reasons to go after Bin Laden in 1996? How about 19 dead U.S. airmen and hundreds of injured in the Khobar Towers? > [@](#): > > Thursday’s announcement of U.S. indictments against 14 suspects in the June 25, 1996, bombing of the Khobar Towers housing complex in Saudi Arabia that killed 19 U.S. airmen and injured hundreds of others. We could have charged him for the 1993 attacks in Somalia. I know, you need a scorecard to keep track of OBL’s terrorism. > [@](#): > > **GIGObuster** We do it because of history Beagle, when in 1942 the Pearl Harbor hearings disgraced the Admiral neither congress or the NAVY bothered to look to blame the former commanders from 8 years ago. Incidentally President Roosevelt was not affected by all that, so lets keep this discussion up to the point, deal? [You are wrong about the facts, GIGObuster](http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p431_Lutton.html). Roosevelt has been criticised for nearly 50 years, starting less than three years after Pearl Harbor–yes, during the war. No, Roosevelt was not charged with anything, or demoted, he was an elected president ferchrisakes. He could only be impeached. > [@](#): > > But not all were convinced. In September 1944, John T. Flynn launched Pearl Harbor revisionism when he published a forty-six page booklet entitled The Truth about Pearl Harbor. Flynn argued that Roosevelt and his cronies had been plotting war against Japan at least since January 1941. The Administration continued needlessly to provoke the Japanese government throughout the rest of the year, and on November 26, 1941, delivered a diplomatic ultimatum that no government could possibly accept. Flynn also suggested that Kimmel and Short were given the wrong instructions from Washington headquarters, thus aborting the taking of effective measures at the base. > [@](#): > > **capacitor** …turned down requests by Clinton for more funding on the captur of bin Laden… > …in fact impeached him on the same day he took action to go after the prson who now is public enemy #1… If you can cite this for me, I will be happy to get enraged at the Republicans. I generally disagree with both major political parties about half the time. Clinton struck at Iraq on the day he was impeached, not Bin Laden. **jab1,** You did notice that I mentioned “one pinprick missile strike,” right? Why “teach” me about something I already talked about? I am pro-choice, pro-drug legalization, and hate both Rush and Gingrich, FYI. Well “hate” implies that I expend emotional energy on either man, which I don’t. **Dave Stewart** I agree with you. [sub] quick, someone give Dave some smelling salts[/sub] Tenant was in charge when [China](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/tony/snow043099.asp) stole our nuclear warhead technology, for one thing. > [@](#): > > What did the administration do when it learned of the worst security lapse since Pearl Harbor? It yawned. Notra Trulock, then the intelligence director at the Energy Department, has testified that he issued specific warnings to his then-superior at the department, Elizabeth Moler, CIA directors John Deutsch and George Tenant,… ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/23 "2001-10-20T04:55:34Z")
[here](http://terroristwatch.tripod.com/osama_hist.html). Scroll down to paragraph 6 which starts with “A list of terrorist attacks…” ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/24 "2001-10-20T05:06:54Z")
**Beagle** > [@](#): > > Dave Stewart I agree with you. quick, someone give Dave some smelling salts I…feel…faint… 🙂 **Masamune** > [@](#): > > Sacking experienced people after a screw up is not the way to run a business. Its not a business: its a government. If I’m wrong, and the US doesn’t follow the Westminster system of falling on your sword when you screw up, or if your department screws up, then please correct me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/25 "2001-10-20T06:48:59Z")
You really have a blind spot on checking dates **Beagle** : [http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwhtr01.html](http://usembassy.state.gov/afghanistan/wwwhtr01.html) > [@](#): > > – Bin Ladin publicly issued his “Declaration of War” against the United States in August 1996. > > – In November 1996 he pronounced as “praiseworthy terrorism” the bombings in Riyadh and at Khobar in Saudi Arabia, promising that other attacks would follow. He admitted carrying out attacks on U.S. military personnel in Somalia and Yemen, declaring that “we used to hunt them down in Mogadishu.” The “great” evidence from the WSJ OPINION claims that the chance to capture or to kill him was in March 3, 1996 And I can not believe that you are ignoring that the former help Osama provided to the CIA in the Afghan war against the USSR was probably a factor on letting him be. Of Course, by the end of the year we knew he was a “blow-back” but by that time he was out of Somalia. On top of that, the other list you refer to is about SUSPECTED actions before 1996. You get 0 points there. > [@](#): > > You are wrong about the facts, GIGObuster. Roosevelt has been criticised for nearly 50 years, starting less than three years after Pearl Harbor–yes, during the war. No, Roosevelt was not charged with anything, or demoted, he was an elected president ferchrisakes. He could only be impeached. On this case you get less than half a point: Roosevelt was criticized but he was not removed or did quit because of Pearl Harbor. The admiral was the one that got sacked. Some more points can be deduced for continuing to ignore the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/26 "2001-10-20T07:57:00Z")
Keep ignoring **Somalia** and the other events which took place before or during 1996. Yes, the **offer** to turn over Bin Laden came from the Sudanese authorities in March of 1996. We could potentially have stopped the Khobar Towers incident–or had the moneyman as it occurred! Do you know conspiracy law? It makes no difference if the moneyman is in prison when the act is carried out, he can still be charged. We let Osama go because he was mujahadeen? Neither Clinton nor Sandy Berger even claimed that. Cite? I think you mean “Sudan” not “Somalia” when you talk about him leaving, BTW. Everything is SUSPECTED (your caps). No greater level of culpability would be an appropriate description. He is **suspected** in the WTC and Penatgon hijack/suicide plunges also. OBL has not been TRIED and CONVICTED yet. Why? In part, because Clinton did not want him to be extradited to the U.S. I have not “ignored the OP.” Go back and read my posts, I even used the CIA director’s freaking name and gave a citation to one of his other screwups. I have a nice diatribe regarding other CIA failures, and pointed out FBI Director Muller is new also. **You** bring up Waco and WWII, I prove you wrong on Roosevelt, and then you come in with these childish “grades” for my posts. If you think I meant “you” literally on my “scorecard” comment, and that set you off, I didn’t. One (I) seriously need(s) a scorecard to keep track of all OBL’s terrorist activities. He has quite a resume. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/27 "2001-10-20T07:59:24Z")
Back to the business at hand: I checked C-Span and Capitol Hearings and could find no scheduled hearings on the FBI and CIA actions. Did they already happen? [http://www.c-span.org/congress/committees.asp](http://www.c-span.org/congress/committees.asp) If we use the chronology from Pearl Harbor ( [http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/invest.html](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/invest.html) ) 2 reports were made (one secret one public) 2 days after the attack. Admiral Kimmel was relieved on December 16. The first formal hearings started about a MONTH after the attack. Even with the recent closures of congress I am beginning to be upset that very little has been done in the way of investigating publicly what did go wrong, Does anybody knows were to get transcripts from recent hearings and if any dealed with the actions of the FBI and CIA and army on 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![EvilGhandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@EvilGhandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilGhandi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/28 "2001-10-20T08:04:14Z")
You know what you “F” heads are doing? You are attempting to lay blame on the US. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/29 "2001-10-20T09:09:07Z")
**Beagle** you are right regarding him leaving Sudan, not Somalia, I switched nations. Bin Laden admitted his Somalia guilt in November 1996 so you are still ignoring dates. But I do not ignore what he did. Bin Laden was indicted on the Embassy bombings (1998). I never said he was innocent, he is guilty as hell, but we only were sure of that around the end of 1996 and even more so in 1998, your original source is still wrong. Incidentally, I do concur that the evidence against him is stronger now regarding all the past cases, but that was the result of ongoing investigations. The biggest mistake of the WSJ is to assume that Clinton and the CIA magically knew the conclusions of investigations that took time, even years to complete, early in 1996. I think you are not realizing yet that that is why the original source is an opinion, not a fact. That remains my original complaint. I know you are annoyed by me going deep into the past but looks like you completely missed the point that my examples were Janet Reno and Truman (not Waco or WWII) and they were examples of leaders that show when and how to take responsibility, not for causing the problem, but dealing with it. **EvilGhandy** is also missing the point: The US was not to blame for the attacks but if we do not investigate what did go wrong, we are not going to fix the weak spots in our defense. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/30 "2001-10-20T21:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > **[You are wrong about the facts, GIGObuster](http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p431_Lutton.html). Roosevelt has been criticised for nearly 50 years, starting less than three years after Pearl Harbor–yes, during the war. No, Roosevelt was not charged with anything, or demoted, he was an elected president ferchrisakes. He could only be impeached.** You cited the Institute for Historical Review? An organization that denies that [Auschwitz](http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.html) was a death camp? They claim they don’t deny the Holocaust ever happened, but their own documents say [otherwise](http://www.ihr.org/search_results.shtml?keywords=Auschwitz&submit=Search&booltype=and). I wouldn’t call them a reliable source. Heed the words of Harlan Ellison in my sig. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/31 "2001-10-20T23:36:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > You cited the Institute for Historical Review? An organization that denies that [Auschwitz](http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.html) was a death camp? They claim they don’t deny the Holocaust ever happened, but their own documents say [otherwise](http://www.ihr.org/search_results.shtml?keywords=Auschwitz&submit=Search&booltype=and). I wouldn’t call them a reliable source. > > Heed the words of Harlan Ellison in my sig. \*\* I liked your colliding universe post, it deserved more debate. [HIJACK] The IHR analyzes historical revisionism. By its very nature it is controversial. The IHR does not do exactly what you claim, although I must admit I never saw any of their other stuff other than the summary of Pearl Harbor revisonism. Now I have, yeesh, the IHR has dozens of articles on this. They are critical of the systematic gassing theory, while acknowledging that millions died in horrific conditons, or were executed. They debate what the holocaust was, not question its existence. I know to most modern people, this is the one historical subject which is taboo, off limits, _verboten._ Perhaps this is smart given the fodder that neo-Nazi skinhead types make of any critical review of the issue. But, to a history major like myself, it is one of the most important stories of all time, worthy of a critical look–not here though. It is a complex issue where everyone involved had personal grudges and agendas. The Germans were heavily indoctrinated, often psycopathic, and trying to avoid being executed. The prisoners (many of whom were Polish, as my mother’s family is) wanted revenge against cruel captors. The war crimes tribunals, Americans, and Soviets were not without agendas either. _Nowhere did I find any IHR denial of the fact that millions were wrongfully captured, imprisoned, kept in abominable conditions, starved, diseased, or executed in captivity._ Some of my relatives were raped and/or killed by the Germans and Soviets, so I find this subject fascinating, albeit sickening. There is so much more to say on this issue, I just don’t think it belongs here. I question the IHR position on the holocaust, BTW, to me it is new. If you can point out mistakes in the Roosevelt piece, I would love to hear them, er, later on another thread about Pearl Harbor. It is a great collection of the literature on the subject, and draws no firm conclusion. I used it as a citation because the argument went, as I saw it, that Roosevelt was not contemporaneously criticized for Pearl Harbor (like I was doing to Clinton). I did a thorough search one night and found that the IHR article mentioned all the major critical publications that I found, and summarized the Roosevelt position. [/HIJACK] **George Tenant must go!** [sub]Not sure it will help, but his agency sure screws up a lot.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/32 "2001-10-21T00:58:31Z")
\*\*EvilGhandi \*\*: > [@](#): > > You know what you “F” heads are doing? [Moderator Hat ON] Cute. However, I am not amused. Do not call people “fuckheads” in this forum ever again, even if you forget to type a few letters. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/33 "2001-10-21T21:21:39Z")
EvilGhandi: > [@](#): > > \*\*You know what you “F” heads are doing? > > You are attempting to lay blame on the US. > > Shame on you. \*\* No, sir. Shame on _you_, if your implication is that I’m saying FBI and CIA agents would have hijacked planes, slit the throats of flight attendents, and crashed said planes into skyscrapers to kill as many civilians as possible. I said the leaders of those two agencies should be fired or resign because they were derelict in their duties prior to Sept. 11. The CIA sent a garbled memo and didn’t follow up, and are now trying to claim it was one of their highest priorities. The FBI claims it was one of their highest priorities, too, but they _demonstrably_ failed to undertake basic procedures that would have, in all likelihood, thwarted the terrorists. (Unless you believe the reporters for the L.A. Times are lying. If so, let’s hear it.) Instead of insultingly tsk-tsking me and twisting my assertion, point out the flaws in it. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/34 "2001-10-21T22:08:29Z")
**Beagle** , regarding the IHR, allow me to refer you to Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory by Deborah E. Lipstadt. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/35 "2001-10-22T17:15:44Z")
Oddly, Louis Freeh was _very_ recently held by our friends on the partisan right to be a rare, principled hero for his persistent condemnation of Janet Reno’s refusal to appoint special prosecutors every time any accusation was ever laid against the Clinton Administration. Things sure can change fast, can’t they? If anyone has been derelict in their duties, it includes that portion of the citizenry that failed to ask the right questions of the right people at the right times. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/36 "2001-10-22T17:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > Oddly, Louis Freeh was _very_ recently held by our friends on the partisan right to be a rare, principled hero for his persistent condemnation of Janet Reno’s refusal to appoint special prosecutors every time any accusation was ever laid against the Clinton Administration. > > Things sure can change fast, can’t they? Um, [Robert Muller](http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2001/0913/breaking2.htm) is the head of the FBI now. I mentioned this above. Things do change fast, like FBI directors. Thanks for the factually incorrect non-topical partisan cheapshot though. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/37 "2001-10-22T23:34:41Z")
But **Milo** , aren’t you the least bit concerned that a shakeup in management right now could lead to the exact same sight gaps that allowed the events of the 11th to occur? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/38 "2001-10-22T23:41:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > **The IHR analyzes historical revisionism.** With the aim of making the Nazis seem far [less evil](http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p-4_Weber.html) than they truly were: > [@](#): > > According to popular legend, Auschwitz was an extermination center organized to kill as many Jewish prisoners as possible with the greatest possible dispatch. In fact, though, the authorities responsible for Germany’s wartime concentration camp network carried out extensive measures at Auschwitz, and other camps, to save inmates’ lives. And: > [@](#): > > It is commonly believed that SS men used Zyklon to kill millions of Jews in gas chambers at Auschwitz and other German camps. But in fact SS men used Zyklon to help prevent camp inmates’ deaths. They deployed it in very large quantities at Auschwitz and other wartime concentration camps by fumigating barracks, by delousing clothing in special gas chambers, and so forth, to destroy disease-bearing vermin. I’m sure the gas chambers killed a lot of lice, but it also killed the people along with them. And try this: > [@](#): > > The efficiency of these “high tech” Auschwitz facilities, designed to help save prisoners’ lives, contrasts sharply with the absurdly primitive technology of the camp’s **alleged** homicidal gas chambers, **supposedly** meant to kill prisoners. As Holocaust historian Jean-Claude Pressac has written, the (supposed) homicidal gassing procedure at Auschwitz-Birkenau crematory facilities IV and V, for example, was cumbersome, “irrational and ridiculous.” Even if it were as inefficient as Pressac claims, that would not make it any less evil. > [@](#): > > **The IHR does not do exactly what you claim,** Oh, yes, it does. > [@](#): > > _ **Nowhere did I find any IHR denial of the fact that millions were wrongfully captured, imprisoned, kept in abominable conditions, starved, diseased, or executed in captivity.** _ I suggest you read [“Did Six Million Really Die?”](http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd01.html) (which is quite long). From the very first page: > [@](#): > > Gruesome paperback books with lurid covers continue to roll from the presses, adding continuously to a growing mythology of the concentration camps and especially to the story that no less than Six Million Jews were exterminated in them. The ensuing pages will reveal this claim to be the most colossal piece of fiction and the most successful of deceptions; but here an attempt may be made to answer an important question: What has rendered the atrocity stories of the Second World War so uniquely different from those of the First? Why were the latter retracted while the former are reiterated louder than ever? Is it possible that the story of the Six Million Jews is serving a political purpose, even that it is a form of political blackmail? In [Part 6](http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd06.html), the author tries to have us believe that “The Diary of Anne Frank” is a hoax. And from [the last part](http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd08.html), there is the conclusion: > [@](#): > > In 1955, another neutral Swiss source, Die Tat of Zurich (January 19th, 1955), in a survey of all Second World War casualties based on figures of the lnternational Red Cross, put the “Loss of victims of persecution because of politics, race or religion who died in prisons and concentration camps between 1939 and 1945” at 300,000, not all of whom were Jews, and this figure seems the most accurate assessment. > [@](#): > > **Some of my relatives were raped and/or killed by the Germans and Soviets** I would suggest, then, that you steer clear of IHR in the future. They are NOT one your allies. > [@](#): > > **There is so much more to say on this issue, I just don’t think it belongs here.** I agree. This is the last I’ll say in this thread on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![curious\_george](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@curious\_george](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious_george)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237/39 "2001-10-31T15:00:21Z")
Some Onion humor on the topic: [http://www.theonion.com/onion3739/index.html](http://www.theonion.com/onion3739/index.html) “CIA Admits It’s Good At Overthrowing Stuff, Not So Much The Intelligence” …“Iran, Zaire, Guatemala, Chile, Indonesia, Greece, Panama, Australia, Haiti… we’re real good at toppling regimes,” Tenet said. “But just collecting your basic data about who’s up to what in the U.S. and whatnot, that’s not our strong suit.”… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-directors-of-the-cia-and-fbi-should-resign-or-be-fired/88237.md?page=1)