# Resolved, the West will Win the GWoT **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826 "2011-04-18T13:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/41 "2011-04-18T16:04:39Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Actually, your argument rather suggests the opposite, whereas mine suggests - as in Vietnam, progress toward stability and a modicum of better governance is best achieved when the Foreigner is no longer there to prop up the sad excuse of an ally. Yep we have to dump the present regime, it seems to me. > [@wmfellows](#): > > Once again, the Sunk Cost Fallacy. You fail to ask yourself the question where the very presence of NATO is generating the very instability and opposition that it is fighting. There is every reason to believe so. Nope, Afghanistan was a cesspit when we got there. We did not create the instability. We are pushing for a stability that will make us safer. [QUOTE=wmfellows;13700715O] you mean destroying the corrupt government that is NATO’s “ally” and the Western bombing if innocent villagers? [/QUOTE] Yep the use of airpower as we have used it has been counterproductive. We need to change that. [QUOTE=wmfellows;13700715O] Right, by bombing village weddings. That will most surely convince people of the greatness of Western cultural values. Or by putting the West’s imprimatur on a flagrantly corrupt, ineffective, election stealing regime - again a staggeringly wonderful example that should have Afghans just falling over themselves to embrace McDo and other stuff. [/QUOTE] Did you just say all of this once before in the top half of your post? [QUOTE=wmfellows;13700715O] The idea of American warplanes as particularly transformative of culture is sheer bollocks. [/QUOTE] Yep you’re right. We will need a massive scholarship program, huge amounts of road building and telecommunications infrastructure, massive health improvements. We have alot to do. Airplanes with bombs don’t seem to have a big part to play. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/42 "2011-04-18T16:06:05Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Gosh, I hope I am not being a Jingo, or a patriot. I hope I am being a soldier. A soldier is a function. You’re making a political argument. I find it rather tedious you’re dressing up that argument in veteran clothing. > [@](#): > > Why are soldiers dying needlessly? Doubtless because the Sunk Cost Fallacy is such a powerful one in human behaviour. > [@](#): > > This war seemed pretty needful when airplanes were flying into buildings. Yes, indeed. 2001 however is not 2011. > [@](#): > > Would you want us to want to go back the next time it happens? If there was a need, one should hope that lessons would be learned and no long-term " let’s magically transform Afghan culture into Little Town USA culture" would be on the table. Of course even better would be to learn the lesson to fight via proxies unless you have no good proxies at all. > [@](#): > > I sort of hate paying for\*\* real estate twice\*\*. There’s your problem. You’re not paying for real estate. Again the bad analogies funnelled through the American hyper myopia driven by the WWII experience. WWII was an exceptional experience, an exceptional sort of war. You’re not going to repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/43 "2011-04-18T16:07:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Why are our rapists, torturers and murderers morally superior to some other gang of rapists, torturers and murderers? Americans who kill or rape need to be tried, found guilty and killed. Another part of this fight we got wrong. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This isn’t “World War III”, this is a certain faction of America hyperventilating because it can’t function without pretending the US is on the brink of annihilation. They lost the USSR, so now instead they are trying to pretend that Al Qaeda is SPECTRE or that China is trying to conquer us. You finally finished that mind-reading course at the community college? Let me clue you in, it does not really work. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/44 "2011-04-18T16:07:59Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > As for the cost, I would remind you our generation’s Pearl Harbor cost us 3,000 dead. That gives you some idea of the scale of this war. Yeahhhh. See. There’s two problems here. 1. Three thousand people is … actually, not a lot of people. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have already cost more than that, in terms of bodies (more by several orders of magnitude if you include non-American lives, which you should.) What you’re proposing will cost significantly more people than three thousand. 2. You’re not in the states at the moment, so maybe you’re unaware of the current political climate. On the one hand, Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to prevent raising taxes (or even just rolling back Bush’s tax cuts) to pay for our current debts - they’re even fighting for more tax cuts, in fact. OTOH, the Republicans are screaming and crying that we need to cut domestic services such as Medicare, Social Security, Head Start, Planned Parenthood, infrastructre spending, Healthcare, etc. Bottom line: there is _zero_ possibility of anyone in the current political situation going to bat for tax increases to expand our military involvement in Afghanistan. It’s not happening. Given that we don’t have the money, the troops, the will, or the patience to successful conquer Afghanistan and wait a few generations for it to succumb to Disney & MacDonalds - we might as well cut our losses. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/45 "2011-04-18T16:08:01Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I am not interested in national self-esteem. I am surprised you mentioned such a thing. Why are you surprised? **Qin Shi Huangdi** said withdrawing from Afghanistan would be bad for national self-esteem. It’s very direct. > [@](#): > > The new Afghani government is incapable or unwilling to do its duty. Despite military support and billions of dollars in aid from the U.S. How much more money do you think it will cost to get that working properly? It’s evident to me that they don’t give a shit. The country is their fiefdom. They’re in it to make as much money as they can, and they’re doing pretty well at that, thank you very much. > [@](#): > > Until they are, we must protect ourselves. And that’s the legitimate concern. If the U.S. leaves, is this going to get worse? Will terrorist attacks and regional instability get worse? They might. At this point I have no idea. I see a mess if the U.S. leaves and a mess if it stays. > [@](#): > > We best do that by destroying the culture and conditions that allowed the pestilence to take hold. That’s not how it works, and you’re kidding yourself if you think bombing and bribing are going to fix that. > [@](#): > > You might call it draining the swamp to get rid of the mosquitos. You can call it by whatever cutesy euphemism you like. It’s not going very well. > [@](#): > > In some countries we will fight this war with weapons. In others we will use more subtle means of changing the cultural landscape. I’m not disputing that. > [@](#): > > As for the cost, I would remind you our generation’s Pearl Harbor cost us 3,000 dead. That gives you some idea of the scale of this war. This is empty bluster and it does not address the merits of any course of action or the wisdom in viewing the problem through the lens you’re suggesting. I know terrorists kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/46 "2011-04-18T16:08:49Z")
Hey, **wmfellows,** you’re back! Welcome. Why is it you think Afghanis will ‘never’ have good clean self government? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/47 "2011-04-18T16:12:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s not how it works, and you’re kidding yourself if you think bombing and bribing are going to fix that. Really, how odd, these techniques cleared up that Nazi infestation. Why would they not be part of the arsenal this time around? Of course many other courses of action will be required too. Look, do you really think in the long run the people of the Middle Part of the Map are going to live under dictators and bullies? In the long run, would we agree the West has the winning cards here? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/48 "2011-04-18T16:14:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I agree with the OP. > > If we were to withdraw from Afghanistan, it would be the greatest propaganda victory for America’s mortal enemies since Vietnam and our confidence shall be crushed. It is bitterly ironic that the media tends to play up America’s defeats rather than its victories (ie in Iraq). We won in Iraq-we will win in Afghanistan too. We’ll fight them in Pakistan, Yemen, and wherever else they’re hiding but we will win. So you’re signing up for the infantry when you turn 18? And we’re going to be policing every goddam dusty hellhole in the world for the next 50 years? And this is going to accomplish what, exactly? You know, the Vietnam comparison is worth making. We spent billions and billions of dollars, thousands and thousands of Americans died, millions of Vietnamese and other southeast asians died, the country was wrecked, we had a deliberate policy of deforestation of the country. And all for what? When we left, the communists took over, shot a bunch of people, rounded up even more people and sent them to the camps. And then what? The future of Vietnam was up to the Vietnamese people. And now Vietnam under the same communist regime is pretty much a normal third world crappy country. This was the future we were fighting desperately to prevent. No, I understand that at the time Global Communism was still a concern. Except that didn’t turn out so well, and now Fidel Castro is the last Communist true believer in the world. And he’s 80 years old and barely alive. When people get all askeert about Islamism, what they’re really revealing is a lack of confidence in liberal values. They think Islamism is winning, and only a full-out effort on the part of the west will avert Osama bin Ladin’s triumphal march through the streets of Paris. Except that’s pretty much a fantasy. It’s a fantasy of people who don’t really believe in America’s or Europe’s strength. We don’t have to “win” anything. Yeah, every so often some fuckheads will put together a training camp, and we should bomb the crap out of it. So what? The real pressure on terrorist orgs comes from normal boring police work, and that includes, guess what, a lot of informants from Muslims who like peace and prosperity and provide intelligence to the cops. Osama bin Ladin wishes that this was a global war between Islam and the West. But it ain’t. It’s a few guys with delusions, exactly the same sorts of delusions that the militia movement guys had. It’s fun to play war, it’s fun to imagine yourself an important person. It’s the _exact_ same thing as Columbine, and has the same political and social significance. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/49 "2011-04-18T16:16:22Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yep we have to dump the present regime, it seems to me. Oh wonderful fine. You’re going to dump it and then given the deep and sophisticated understanding the American military has so far displayed in its dealings in Afghanistan and Iraq, we should wait for real excellence in choosing the next puppet government… > [@](#): > > Nope, Afghanistan was a cesspit when we got there. We did not create the instability. We are pushing for a stability that will make us safer. Ten years on you’ve gotten nowhere. Afghanistan was a failed state following the Sov invasion, foreign intervention hasn’t a good track record, nor do American third world interventions. > [@](#): > > Yep you’re right. We will need a massive scholarship program, huge amounts of road building and telecommunications infrastructure, massive health improvements. We have alot to do. Airplanes with bombs don’t seem to have a big part to play. One can not engage in all those fine wonderful things unless there is domestic stability. Domestic stability is not generated by foreign armies in these times. Time to get out. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/50 "2011-04-18T16:20:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > When people get all askeert about Islamism, what they’re really revealing is a lack of confidence in liberal values. They think Islamism is winning, and only a full-out effort on the part of the west will avert Osama bin Ladin’s triumphal march through the streets of Paris. Thank you for a very thoughtful post. Exactly right in many ways. Maybe even more right than my OP. We are winning. Gosh though, I hate the thought of more women being beheaded or sold into marriage. A lack of self-confidence is exactly a problem. Moral relativism and all that. I hope you all would excuse me. I am feeling a bit under the weather and am going to take a dose of smuggled-in NyQuil. Tomorrow I have another day of teaching young Saudis about the rest of the world. Seriously, thank you very much for your posts, they have made me think. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/51 "2011-04-18T16:23:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know, the Vietnam comparison is worth making. We spent billions and billions of dollars, thousands and thousands of Americans died, millions of Vietnamese and other southeast asians died, the country was wrecked, we had a deliberate policy of deforestation of the country. And all for what? > > When we left, the communists took over, shot a bunch of people, rounded up even more people and sent them to the camps. And then what? The future of Vietnam was up to the Vietnamese people. And now Vietnam under the same communist regime is pretty much a normal third world crappy country. This was the future we were fighting desperately to prevent. No you see if we only had the _willpower_ to stay and napalm a few more villages… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/52 "2011-04-18T16:26:52Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Why would they not be part of the arsenal this time around? Who said they weren’t? > [@](#): > > Look, do you really think in the long run the people of the Middle Part of the Map are going to live under dictators and bullies? In the long run, would we agree the West has the winning cards here? I think that’s been the case for a long time and I am not sure “the long war” is the solution to it. I think it’s possible that a significant portion of the population in the Middle East is wising up to the strategy their governments have employed: take all the oil money, give a pittance to the population without developing the economy, and blame everything on the U.S. and Israel. If that stops working, that would be fantastic. And yes, I think Al Qaeda has done a great job of alienating everyone because its strategy involves murdering everybody who is not a fanatical Sunni Muslim. But you were arguing in favor of something more specific, namely that the U.S. needs to stay in Afghanistan for another 50 years, and probalby even longer, since you’re saying the current U.S.-backed government should be scrapped. On the one hand you’re saying a hammer can be a useful tool in building a house, which most people would agree with. On the other hand you’re saying ‘if we keep hammering at this rickety house for another 50 years, it’ll be fine.’ I think it’s reasonable for people to ask if that’s really a good use of their time. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/53 "2011-04-18T16:28:26Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Really, how odd, these techniques cleared up that Nazi infestation. Why would they not be part of the arsenal this time around? Of course many other courses of action will be required too. > > Look, do you really think in the long run the people of the Middle Part of the Map are going to live under dictators and bullies? In the long run, would we agree the West has the winning cards here? Nazis and WWII are an entirely different history and problem than Central Asia and the Third World. The sooner Americans learn to stop trying to see every conflict through the unique lens of the European World War(s) the better. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Hey, **wmfellows,** you’re back! Welcome. > > Why is it you think Afghanis will ‘never’ have good clean self government? I believe I already answered your question - my never was in respect to your particular proposition that Western troops would lead them there a la South Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/54 "2011-04-18T16:30:56Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Look, do you really think in the long run the people of the Middle Part of the Map are going to live under dictators and bullies? In the long run, would we agree the West has the winning cards here? Of course we have the winning cards. That’s the point. We’re not in a desperate struggle to save ourselves from conquest. Eventually people look around and compare their crappy country to other countries and ask themselves, “Why the fuck is our country a shithole, and their country is pretty decent?” And then they try Communism, and that doesn’t work, then they try Islamism, and that doesn’t work, and eventually they get the idea that the rule of law, democracy, governmental accountability, liberalism, and capitalism is the common thread behind all the non-shithole countries in the world, barring a few petrostates. We’ve seen state after state pull themselves from shithole status to mediocrity with a few simple concepts. Of course it isn’t easy, since being a shithole is a vicious cycle that makes simple common sense improvements incredibly difficult. But development is a virtuous cycle where previous improvements make further improvements easier and easier. So yeah, it’s not going to be easy and it’s not going to happen any time soon, and we’ll have to clean out training camps with bombs and guns sometimes. But we’re winning, and not because of our brave soldiers and bomber pilots. We have those because we’re so rich that we can afford to squander a heck of a lot of treasure bombing villages halfway across the world. The shiny fleets of bombers are a symptom of our success, not the cause of our success. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/55 "2011-04-18T16:31:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think this constitutes a war, and I don’t think you can have a war against terror even if you turn it back into the full word, terrorism. 😛 And as around 85 million people have already pointed out over the years, terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology or a cause. “The Global Cooperation To Minimize And Eliminate Terroristic Threats”? T.G.C.T.M.A.E.T.T. Tig-cut-met. There. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/56 "2011-04-18T16:38:58Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Osama bin Ladin wishes that this was a global war between Islam and the West. But it ain’t. It’s a few guys with delusions, exactly the same sorts of delusions that the militia movement guys had. It’s fun to play war, it’s fun to imagine yourself an important person. It’s the _exact_ same thing as Columbine, and has the same political and social significance. A fantastic analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/57 "2011-04-18T17:55:05Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I am disappointed so many people want us (the West) to pull out of Afghanistan. What’s up with that? > > We are winning in Afghanistan. What the heck did you think a war in that stinkhole would look like? We haven’t even been in Afghanistan for ten years yet. It took most of fifty years to get South Korea up and running. > > Look, after 9-11, you (civilian people) sent us (military people) to war. We told you it would be a generation-long effort. Remember when George Bush (the Lesser) tried to call it “The Long War?” So why the heck do people want to pull out now? > > In the bigger picture, this spate of terrorism is the last flash of a light bulb as it burns out. Why do you think Islamic Fundamentalists have turned to arms? Because they could see they are losing the economic, cultural and demographic battle. > > Few people want to be poor and religious. Most want to be rich and secular. The West’s culture is kicking butt all over the world. These guys could see where it was heading and kicked over the table rather than letting it happen. > > Remember the big, bad Soviet Union? It collapsed to Coca-Cola and McDonald’s. Same thing here. Once we get our act together and destroy the weak governments in this region, things will change in a big way, and in our way. > > We are winning. And we are winning in a non-Charlie Sheen sort of way. > > Be brave, admit mistakes, adjust and keep up the fight. There is absolutely zero chance that the west will have the slightest long-term effect in Afghanistan. The people we’re fighting, drawn mainly from the southern regions of Afghanistan, are southern religious conservatives. They believe in traditional family values, they dislike change, they hate the evil influence of Hollywood and permissive culture, they ride around in pickup trucks, don’t believe in evolution and they hate gay people. Trying to bring about fundamental change in their society, trying to make them live under a system created by a culture completely alien to them, will only make them cling to their guns and their religion. Seriously, you think we’re winning in Afghanistan? What gives you that idea? And we’re spreading democracy in the Middle East? We’re propping up dictatorships all over the region and OKing them sending troops into other countries to crush pro-democracy protests by killing civilians. It may make you feel better to post something like this but it’s arrant nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/58 "2011-04-18T17:56:27Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > “The Global Cooperation To Minimize And Eliminate Terroristic Threats”? > > T.G.C.T.M.A.E.T.T. > > Tig-cut-met. > > There. If this monstrosity ever shows up in print, you will pay. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/59 "2011-04-18T19:37:27Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We are winning in Afghanistan. What the heck did you think a war in that stinkhole would look like? We haven’t even been in Afghanistan for ten years yet. It took most of fifty years to get South Korea up and running. South Korea was an ungovernable shithole with assorted tribes at each other’s throats for the entire second half of the twentieth century? Wow, the things you learn on the internet… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/60 "2011-04-18T19:43:53Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > As for the debt, once we decide to win, we will raise taxes and raise new formations to fight this war for the couple of decades. If “we” means the United States while the rest of the Western world wanders off (the story of the Afghanistan war), then I’m going to give Tonto’s answer from the old joke: “What you mean, ‘we’?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=4)