# Resolved, the West will Win the GWoT **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826 "2011-04-18T13:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/61 "2011-04-18T19:44:45Z")
Well, The thing about leaving Afghanistan and Iraq and the rest of the Mideast to the corrupt hellions running it is because eventually it will collapse upon itself as the Western way of life spreads and grows. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/62 "2011-04-18T19:51:54Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Gee, **wmfellows** , you seem to think Afghanis are incapable of modern, clean government. Why is that? Er, because there is no such thing as an “Afghani” people. The various individual groups may or may not be capable of modern clean government, and in the latter case may or may not get to that point sometime in the current generation – mashed together into an artificial grouping on the map, they’re pretty much hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/63 "2011-04-18T20:17:48Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Tomorrow I have another day of teaching young Saudis about the rest of the world. > > Seriously, thank you very much for your posts, they have made me think. _Hickup_ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/64 "2011-04-18T21:28:24Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We will win when the people of Afghanistan … embrace Western culture. … That sounds so familiar, > [@](#): > > **Reforms … 1978–1979** > > … > The government of the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan moved to prohibit traditional practices which were deemed feudal in nature, including banning bride price (Mahr) and forced marriage. The minimum age for marriage was also raised. Education was stressed for both men and women and widespread literacy programmes were set up. According to sources, in 1988, women made up 40 percent of the doctors and 60 percent of the teachers at the University of Kabul; 440,000 female students were enrolled in educational institutions and 80,000 more in literacy programs. Western dress was common in the cities, and women enjoyed freedom from having to cover their faces with veils. > > Such reforms however were not universally well-received, being viewed by many Afghans (particularly in rural areas) as the imposition of secular western values considered to be alien to Afghan culture and un-Islamic. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Afghanistan)[/RIGHT] Oh, wait, that was People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan that ran the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan that we opposed. History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/65 "2011-04-18T21:43:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > My confidence is fine, thanks. This is nonsense. At some point you have to decide whether or not something is a good idea on its own terms, not based on how you think everybody else feels about it or illusory concepts of national self esteem. If the war’s aims are unrealistic and it’s not worth the cost - and I am not taking it as a given that those things are true - there’s no way on earth that those concepts justify continuing the war. Those are not the sole reasons for continuting the war but they’re a factor. > [@](#): > > Who is “we?” The American people. > [@Lemur866](#): > > So you’re signing up for the infantry when you turn 18? And we’re going to be policing every goddam dusty hellhole in the world for the next 50 years? And this is going to accomplish what, exactly? > > You know, the Vietnam comparison is worth making. We spent billions and billions of dollars, thousands and thousands of Americans died, millions of Vietnamese and other southeast asians died, the country was wrecked, we had a deliberate policy of deforestation of the country. And all for what? > > When we left, the communists took over, shot a bunch of people, rounded up even more people and sent them to the camps. And then what? The future of Vietnam was up to the Vietnamese people. And now Vietnam under the same communist regime is pretty much a normal third world crappy country. This was the future we were fighting desperately to prevent. > > No, I understand that at the time Global Communism was still a concern. Except that didn’t turn out so well, and now Fidel Castro is the last Communist true believer in the world. And he’s 80 years old and barely alive. > > When people get all askeert about Islamism, what they’re really revealing is a lack of confidence in liberal values. They think Islamism is winning, and only a full-out effort on the part of the west will avert Osama bin Ladin’s triumphal march through the streets of Paris. > > Except that’s pretty much a fantasy. It’s a fantasy of people who don’t really believe in America’s or Europe’s strength. We don’t have to “win” anything. Yeah, every so often some fuckheads will put together a training camp, and we should bomb the crap out of it. So what? The real pressure on terrorist orgs comes from normal boring police work, and that includes, guess what, a lot of informants from Muslims who like peace and prosperity and provide intelligence to the cops. > > Osama bin Ladin wishes that this was a global war between Islam and the West. But it ain’t. It’s a few guys with delusions, exactly the same sorts of delusions that the militia movement guys had. It’s fun to play war, it’s fun to imagine yourself an important person. It’s the _exact_ same thing as Columbine, and has the same political and social significance. We aren’t occupying every dusty hellhole for the next half-century. Just Afghanistan (for now) in a Korea-like or Japan-like situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/66 "2011-04-18T21:44:26Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We will win when the people of Afghanistan and other nations are rich and led by popular, efficient governments that embrace Western culture. As I said, it took fifty years in South Korea, so why do so many people want to toss the Afghan people back to those who killed and terrorized them. > > The only way the Bad Guys can win is if we give up. Oddly, many people here and elsewhere seem to want to do that. > > Why? Because a “can-do attitude” is not a replacement for a _ **plan!** _ I thought Vietnam had taught us that, but go figure. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/67 "2011-04-18T21:47:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We aren’t occupying every dusty hellhole for the next half-century. Just Afghanistan (for now) in a Korea-like or Japan-like situation. Except Afghanistan is nothing like either Korea or Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/68 "2011-04-18T21:52:38Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Except Afghanistan is nothing like either Korea or Japan. Korea was one of the poorest nations in the world in 1950. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/69 "2011-04-18T21:56:14Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > The people we’re fighting, drawn mainly from the southern regions of Afghanistan, are southern religious conservatives. They believe in traditional family values, they dislike change, they hate the evil influence of Hollywood and permissive culture, they ride around in pickup trucks, don’t believe in evolution and they hate gay people. Trying to bring about fundamental change in their society, trying to make them live under a system created by a culture completely alien to them, will only make them cling to their guns and their religion. Your point makes even more sense when you realize that you could substitute “USA” for “Afghanistan” and it still sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/70 "2011-04-18T22:04:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Korea was one of the poorest nations in the world in 1950. The terrain and extreme weather are pretty similar too. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/71 "2011-04-18T22:05:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Korea was one of the poorest nations in the world in 1950. See my post above re geography, ethnic homogeneity, past historical colonial history and regional antagonism, etc. There is nothing comparable. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/72 "2011-04-18T22:25:59Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > See my post above re geography, ethnic homogeneity, past historical colonial history and regional antagonism, etc. > > There is nothing comparable. FTR I don’t think they are all that comparable either. The OP’s insistence on a “Korea-like” solution just simply won’t work in Afghanistan, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. And also because 1950 America is not 2011 America in the eyes of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/73 "2011-04-18T23:45:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Just Afghanistan (for now) in a Korea-like or Japan-like situation. This absurd comparison of Afghanistan to Korea has got to stop. It’s almost as bad as Rumsfeld et al comparing the post-Mission Accomplished war in Iraq to the post-war occupation of Germany. The only thing remarkable is how little they have to do with each other; there was no fighting after the German surrender. Let’s compare: Korea: The US fought a 3 year conventional war alongside South Korea after being invaded by the communist North that ended in a ceasefire with the border barely having moved. US forces are maintained in a friendly (note: not occupying) South Korea to deter a renewal of war. Aside from incidents such as the axe-murders and the seizing of the USS Pueblo **there is no fighting or death of American servicemen** for the next 60 years up to the present. The US supports dictatorships of Syngman Rhee and subsequent military coups until South Korea moves towards being a functional democracy in the late 80s on its own accord. Afghanistan: The US invades and deposes the existing government of Afghanistan for harboring Al Qaeda after 9/11. The US backs a puppet government; guerilla warfare ensues for the next ten years up to today with US military personal fighting and dying. Al Qaeda is no longer based in Afghanistan. How is this in any way comparable to the Korean War and the next seven years of South Korean history? ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/74 "2011-04-19T00:31:18Z")
You are all nitpicking. Afghanistan is “over there”, just like North Korea was. They are “Bad Guys”, exactly like North Koreans were. It’s the same! :rolleyes: To the OP: Was North Korea picked out of thin air because you want a 50 year mandate? ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/75 "2011-04-19T01:00:44Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Aside from incidents such as the axe-murders and the seizing of the USS Pueblo **there is no fighting or death of American servicemen** for the next 60 years up to the present. Did Americans also not kill a bunch of innocent South Koreans during the 50 year occupation? That might be another important difference! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/76 "2011-04-19T01:14:07Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > This absurd comparison of Afghanistan to Korea has got to stop. It’s almost as bad as Rumsfeld et al comparing the post-Mission Accomplished war in Iraq to the post-war occupation of Germany. The only thing remarkable is how little they have to do with each other; there was no fighting after the German surrender. Let’s compare: > > Korea: The US fought a 3 year conventional war alongside South Korea after being invaded by the communist North that ended in a ceasefire with the border barely having moved. US forces are maintained in a friendly (note: not occupying) South Korea to deter a renewal of war. Aside from incidents such as the axe-murders and the seizing of the USS Pueblo **there is no fighting or death of American servicemen** for the next 60 years up to the present. The US supports dictatorships of Syngman Rhee and subsequent military coups until South Korea moves towards being a functional democracy in the late 80s on its own accord. > > Afghanistan: The US invades and deposes the existing government of Afghanistan for harboring Al Qaeda after 9/11. The US backs a puppet government; guerilla warfare ensues for the next ten years up to today with US military personal fighting and dying. Al Qaeda is no longer based in Afghanistan. How is this in any way comparable to the Korean War and the next seven years of South Korean history? Because it’ll all work out in the end? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/77 "2011-04-19T01:23:13Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Did Americans also not kill a bunch of innocent South Koreans during the 50 year occupation? That might be another important difference! Just to drive this point home, it’s fairly rare and considered “news” whenever any American serviceman is involved in anything unpleasant in Japan or Korea, and this has been the case for decades. The fact that the few major incidents to have occurred since the surrender of Japan are remembered so well is telling. By contrast, hearing about American or civilian deaths in Afghanistan isn’t even worth batting an eyelash. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/78 "2011-04-19T01:28:29Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > See my post above re geography, ethnic homogeneity, past historical colonial history and regional antagonism, etc. > > There is nothing comparable. So your saying it is some sort of racial/ethnic thing? East Asians can govern themselves but Central Asians cannot? Homogeneity? Who mentioned it was impossible to govern France as it produced 100 different kinds of cheese? Are there not a bucketload of racially diverse nations who have clean functioning governments? We have made a lot of mistakes in this war. (We make a lot of mistakes in every war.) We need to adjust our policies. It is remarkable our situation is so good despite our mistakes. Nonetheless the historical momentum is with us. Feudal states Like Afghanistan, Syria and Saudi Arabia are in the long-term doomed. Sometimes and in some places war will help push them along, in other times and other places, Period Three Grammar and Pepsi will. Despite it all, we can see change in these regions, and change is in our favor. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/79 "2011-04-19T06:54:39Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > It is remarkable our situation is so good despite our mistakes. Nonsense. The situation isn’t “good”, nor is it a surprise to anyone who has two brain cells to rub together. We are occupying a hostile chaotic hellhole, and propping up a government of thugs while we abuse the populace while spouting self righteous rhetoric. There’s nothing remotely surprising about that, nor is there anything good about it. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Nonetheless the historical momentum is with us. Nonsense. There’s no historical momentum here beyond the resentment and resistance of people to foreign occupiers. Judging from the experience of Britain, we could occupy them for centuries and they’d still (justifiably) hate us and be our enemies. And any movement towards democracy is going to be against or efforts, not because of them. We are the _enemy_ of democracy, we work tirelessly against it all over the world, including in Afghanistan. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Despite it all, we can see change in these regions, and change is in our favor. No it isn’t. Democracy is against us, since we have worked hard to make ourselves so hated. We are the enemy of Afghanistan, and pretty much everywhere else; we are not trying to make it a better place and never were trying. We are mostly there out of sheer inertia; Bush wanted to conquer Iraq, so he overthrew and occupied Afghanistan in about the fastest, sloppiest way possible to get it out of the way. All we are actually doing is squatting in the mess he made, propping up some thugs and trying to pretend it was a good idea all along because we don’t want to admit it was nothing more than stupidity and malice that got us there. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/80 "2011-04-19T07:13:37Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So your saying it is some sort of racial/ethnic thing? No, rerread my posts for comprehension. As a rhetorical response this is an utter failure. > [@](#): > > East Asians can govern themselves but Central Asians cannot? No, rerread my posts for comprehension. As a rhetorical response this is an utter failure. > [@](#): > > Homogeneity? Ethnic homogeneity is a useful ingrediant for stability, it is also a key differentiator of Korea from Afghanistan. Again, failure as a rhetorical response. > [@](#): > > Who mentioned it was impossible to govern France as it produced 100 different kinds of cheese? Someone you never read in the original and never understood. > [@](#): > > We have made a lot of mistakes in this war. (We make a lot of mistakes in every war.) We need to adjust our policies. It is remarkable our situation is so good despite our mistakes. Nonetheless the historical momentum is with us. Uhhuh. Knowing the Sovs, they definately said that to themselves in 1987. > [@](#): > > Feudal states Like Afghanistan, Syria and Saudi Arabia are in the long-term doomed. Sometimes and in some places war will help push them along, in other times and other places, Period Three Grammar and Pepsi will. Syria? In what way is Syria feudal (or is this one of those lists of random places Americans don’t like)? Regardless, nothing in Afghanistan’s recent history gives comfort to this simple minded type of view as to the impact > [@](#): > > Despite it all, we can see change in these regions, and change is in our favor. In Afghanistan, bollocks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=5)