# Resolved, the West will Win the GWoT **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826 "2011-04-18T13:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/81 "2011-04-19T10:28:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Those are not the sole reasons for continuting the war but they’re a factor. It’s ridiculous that you think it should be a factor. You don’t send people to die so everybody else can feel good about themselves. The war and a continued occupation needs to be assessed on its own merits, not based on nebulous garbage like this. The OP hasn’t offered much in the way of a solid reasons either - one or two, yes but for the most part your arguments are “let the military do its job and it will be fine.” There’s not much reason to believe that. > [@](#): > > The American people. So it sounds like you’re making statements about what other people are going to do (based on what I don’t know). > [@](#): > > Just Afghanistan (for now) in a Korea-like or Japan-like situation. Afghanistan wasn’t anything like Japan or Korea 10 years ago and it isn’t now, either. And there’s no reason to believe it will be in another 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/82 "2011-04-19T11:30:49Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So your saying it is some sort of racial/ethnic thing? East Asians can govern themselves but Central Asians cannot? Pulling accusations of racism out of his arse is the last refuge of someone who has run out of arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/83 "2011-04-19T11:51:06Z")
Diverse nations can govern themselves and do just fine. But when the groups are fighting each other - what’s going on in Afghanistan is not just religious, there is an ethnic element - and there’s not much of a national concept to rally around it doesn’t work very well. Fancy that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/84 "2011-04-19T11:58:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Diverse nations can govern themselves and do just fine. But when the groups are fighting each other - what’s going on in Afghanistan is not just religious, there is an ethnic element - and there’s not much of a national concept to rally around it doesn’t work very well. Fancy that. Yes. We’ve had plenty of object lessons in the aftermath of colonialism that outsiders drawing random lines on maps and calling what’s inside a “nation” doesn’t magically make the people within those lines interested in being a nation. If aliens invaded and declared America, Canada and Mexico all one country would we all suddenly regard ourselves as Mexamericanadians? Of course not; we’d be Americans, Canadians and Mexicans all shoved together, with no loyalty to “Mexamericanada”. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/85 "2011-04-19T15:10:15Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Pulling accusations of racism out of his arse is the last refuge of someone who has run out of arguments. He says Afghanis are uniquely unqualified to govern themselves in a modern fashion. He says this is because of ethnic groups. Is that not racism? ===eta=== In fact in view of his comments in Post 80, it seems he is convinced Afghanistan is cursed amongst all the world to being backwards, that there is no hope. Seems pretty racist to me. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/86 "2011-04-19T15:18:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s ridiculous that you think it should be a factor. You don’t send people to die so everybody else can feel good about themselves. The war and a continued occupation needs to be assessed on its own merits, not based on nebulous garbage like this. The OP hasn’t offered much in the way of a solid reasons either - one or two, yes but for the most part your arguments are “let the military do its job and it will be fine.” There’s not much reason to believe that. Alright then, here’s the main arguments: -Afghanistan was used as a base for terrorism by Al-Qaeda and other groups -If we leave Afghanistan right now and the Taliban is victorious, we will see the establishment of a mediaeval theocracy once again and slaughter perhaps comparable to the killing fields of Cambodia -Women will be confined to harems, stoning will be instituted for rape victims, their education will be forbidden We have a moral duty and a practical reason to stay in Afghanistan. It would be evil if we abandoned it. > [@](#): > > So it sounds like you’re making statements about what other people are going to do (based on what I don’t know). Most of the Republican Party (outside of Chairman Steele’s rather stupid remarks last summer) and the hawkish half of the Democratic Party supports the continuation of the war for the above reasons. > [@](#): > > Afghanistan wasn’t anything like Japan or Korea 10 years ago and it isn’t now, either. And there’s no reason to believe it will be in another 10 years. That’s what the left said about Iraq in '07 and look how its changed in four years. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/87 "2011-04-19T15:30:19Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > He says Afghanis are uniquely unqualified to govern themselves in a modern fashion. Quote my direct words. I never said “Afghanis are uniquely unqualified.” Indeed, quote what I said that leads you to this distortion. > [@](#): > > He says this is because of ethnic groups. Is that not racism? Leaving aside that this is your gloss - an inaccurate one - nope, not in the least. In no way anywhere in my demolishing of your absurd claims make any appeal to anything innate in Afghans as Afghans (nor did I make any comment on any of the specific qualities of the myriad Afghan ethnic groups). I made an argument based off of the current circumstances, geographic positioning (and bad neighbours), historical context and differences, ethnic division (hatreds between the ethnicities), AS COMPARED TO KOREA. A comparative argument, on facts having nothing in particular to do with anything innate in Afghans. I believe you’re the only one that has made direct comment on the personal qualities of Afghans. > [@](#): > > In fact in view of his comments in Post 80, it seems he is convinced Afghanistan is cursed amongst all the world to being backwards, that there is no hope. Seems pretty racist to me. This would only seem pretty racist if one is utterly incapable of reading for understanding and comprehension - or if one is deliberately trying to distort. And you are an educator. Very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/88 "2011-04-19T15:37:35Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > HIs that not racism? No. Next silly question? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/89 "2011-04-19T15:38:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > -If we leave Afghanistan right now and the Taliban is victorious, we will see the establishment of a mediaeval theocracy once again and slaughter perhaps comparable to the killing fields of Cambodia What the fuck? Cambodia? We’re there preventing the auto-genocide of 1/3 of the Afghan population now? You’re not making your argument by pulling another absurdity from left field. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Seems pretty racist to me. Unfounded accusations of racism don’t help either. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/90 "2011-04-19T15:40:35Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > He says Afghanis are uniquely unqualified to govern themselves in a modern fashion. He says this is because of ethnic groups. Is that not racism? If Afghanis are qualified to govern themselves in a modern fashion, why can’t we leave? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/91 "2011-04-19T15:46:37Z")
We have to encourage them to not fall into their old, traditional ways. We have to build a new culture, one that will not allow organizations that attack other countries. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/92 "2011-04-19T15:48:37Z")
You have to build them a new culture? Really? What an interesting idea. And I am the one that is the racist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/93 "2011-04-19T15:52:06Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > In fact in view of his comments in Post 80, it seems he is convinced Afghanistan is cursed amongst all the world to being backwards, that there is no hope. Seems pretty racist to me. I’m dubious of your interpretation, and in any event, this is getting too personal. > [@wmfellows](#): > > This would only seem pretty racist if one is utterly incapable of reading for understanding and comprehension - or if one is deliberately trying to distort. > > And you are an educator. Very interesting. And the same here. Both of you need to stick to the arguments and avoid making comments about each other. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/94 "2011-04-19T15:53:55Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We have to encourage them to not fall into their old, traditional ways. We have to build a new culture, one that will not allow organizations that attack other countries. So…you’re saying that the Afghanis are incapable of governing themselves in a modern fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/95 "2011-04-19T15:55:15Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We have to encourage them to not fall into their old, traditional ways. We have to build a new culture, one that will not allow organizations that attack other countries. Really? Obviously you think that the US military is uniquely qualified to build a new culture in Afghanistan. Please provide us specifics of this plan. Torture? Genocide? Propaganda? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/96 "2011-04-19T16:05:17Z")
Oh no! Government contracts! Pay the farmers for the world’s finest opium! Make them rich and independent from the village chiefs and various warlords. Give them something so as to undermine the traditional power centers. Scholarships for the kids, heck pay them to send the kids to school. Lots of Afghanis heading to the US and Europe for four year free ride. Get Nike to move its tennis shoe factories to Afghanistan. Pay the local women a salary so they can be free of their menfolk. Hospitals and clinics all over the place, nursing schools to help provide the staff. Roads are critical to encourage mobility. A local thug can’t control people who can hop a bus. Speed up the modernization process our enemies so fear. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/97 "2011-04-19T16:18:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Alright then, here’s the main arguments: > -Afghanistan was used as a base for terrorism by Al-Qaeda and other groups Yes, we all know that. (Actually I’m not sure about the “other groups” part.) The question is whether staying there indefinitely is the best way to deal with this. > [@](#): > > -If we leave Afghanistan right now and the Taliban is victorious, we will see the establishment of a mediaeval theocracy once again Yes, also dealt with already. The question is, is that preventable? > [@](#): > > and slaughter perhaps comparable to the killing fields of Cambodia This is absolutely 100% nonsense and it calls your knowledge of history into question. The Taliban is awful and there could be revenge killings, but they’re not going to murder several million people. They were in power for the better part of a decade and didn’t do anything like that. It’s not that they’re too good for it, it’s just not what they are about. > [@](#): > > -Women will be confined to harems … do you know what a harem is? We’re talking about Islamic fundamentalists, not the court of a medieval Sultan. > [@](#): > > stoning will be instituted for rape victims, their education will be forbidden Unfortunately this isn’t going so well right now because so much of the country is out of control. You need to explain how the occupation is going to prevent this in the long term. > [@](#): > > We have a moral duty and a practical reason to stay in Afghanistan. It would be evil if we abandoned it. It’s interesting that I’m taking this position in the argument because, like I said, I’ve never argued for an immediate pullout and I’m skeptical things in Afghanistan can be stabilized in time for the proposed withdrawals. But I’m finding most of the arguments in favor of staying are pretty weak. Yes, Afghanistan would probably revert to Taliban control if the U.S. left. Then again, the Taliban already controls part of the country and gets money from the U.S. (with the Karzai government and its associated hangers-on as an intermediary). The current Afghan government can’t do much of anything about the drug trade or about areas like Waziristan. The occupation hasn’t helped much either. > [@](#): > > Most of the Republican Party (outside of Chairman Steele’s rather stupid remarks last summer) and the hawkish half of the Democratic Party supports the continuation of the war for the above reasons. [No, it doesn’t.](http://www.pollingreport.com/afghan.htm) If you’re talking only about party leadership, maybe you’re right. The public is pretty divided on this. It looks like about half the people think the war is going OK and the occupation should continue, and half think it’s going badly and it’s time to leave. And it looks like a little more than half think it wasn’t worth going in the first place. > [@](#): > > That’s what the left said about Iraq in '07 and look how its changed in four years. Iraq still isn’t like Japan or Korea, but it _did_ have a history of stable (if awful) government and an established civil society, which Afghanistan doesn’t. The whole country also had niceties like running water, electricity, and a middle class, and had suffered through several bad years of civil conflict. Afghanistan has always been pretty disparate, and it’s never been rebuilt after Soviets invaded 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/98 "2011-04-19T16:24:36Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Oh no! Government contracts! Pay the farmers for the world’s finest opium! Make them rich and independent from the village chiefs and various warlords. Give them something so as to undermine the traditional power centers. > > Scholarships for the kids, heck pay them to send the kids to school. Lots of Afghanis heading to the US and Europe for four year free ride. Get Nike to move its tennis shoe factories to Afghanistan. Pay the local women a salary so they can be free of their menfolk. > > Hospitals and clinics all over the place, nursing schools to help provide the staff. Roads are critical to encourage mobility. A local thug can’t control people who can hop a bus. > > Speed up the modernization process our enemies so fear. You think the **US military** is ideally suited to market opium, provide education scholarships, run banana republic shoe factories, and provide healthcare to the Afghani people? Assuming this fairytale is at all possible, why exactly should US citizens pay for any of this? Why is Afghanistan so fucking important? There are dozens of Afghanistans, who is going to pay to “rehabilitate” those? ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/99 "2011-04-19T16:25:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Afghanistan wasn’t anything like Japan or Korea 10 years ago and it isn’t now, either. And there’s no reason to believe it will be in another 10 years. Compare, contrast, make trip down doesn’t follow fallacy lane. There is no reason to believe anything your imagination conjures up for the ten years ahead time frame unless you are predisposed to making correct predictions about the future. That’s why we like to uh, “influence” things to our advantage, wherever practical. Got any hot stock tips? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/100 "2011-04-19T16:29:22Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > You think the **US military** is ideally suited to market opium, provide education scholarships, run banana republic shoe factories, and provide healthcare to the Afghani people? No, of course not. Whole new organizations will have to handle that sort of thing. > [@Implicit](#): > > Assuming this fairytale is at all possible, why exactly should US citizens pay for any of this? Why is Afghanistan so fucking important? There are dozens of Afghanistans, who is going to pay to “rehabilitate” those? We should pay for it to crush our enemies of course. Afghanistan is important as it a refuge for the enemies. (Who said anything about selling opium? I said buy the stuff.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=6)