# Resolved, the West will Win the GWoT **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826 "2011-04-18T13:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/101 "2011-04-19T16:29:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I thought the war was on behalf of the Afghanis. Now they’re a threat? You see, that’s the problem with some Afghanis - they are terrorists. Maybe you can come up with a foolproof way to tell them apart so we can round up all the bad guys and speed this along? You know, get the troops home for Christmas and all. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/102 "2011-04-19T16:30:08Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Got any hot stock tips? 😃 I’ll give you a stock tip if you can find a prediction in my post. But if you reread the post you’ll find I didn’t make one. “There’s no reason to believe” something is going to happen is not the same as “this is not going to happen.” It’s a statement about the reasonability of expecting something. > [@Nadir](#): > > You see, that’s the problem with some Afghanis - they are terrorists. Maybe you can come up with a foolproof way to tell them apart so we can round up all the bad guys and speed this along? Read **Paul in Qatar** ’s post and you’ll see what I was actually responding to. He said “the Afghanis” are a threat to the world. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/103 "2011-04-19T16:32:39Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We should pay for it to crush our enemies of course. Of course. Enjoy the your flag waving, I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/104 "2011-04-19T16:33:21Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > When people get all askeert about Islamism, what they’re really revealing is a lack of confidence in liberal values. They think Islamism is winning, and only a full-out effort on the part of the west will avert Osama bin Ladin’s triumphal march through the streets of Paris. > > Except that’s pretty much a fantasy. It’s a fantasy of people who don’t really believe in America’s or Europe’s strength. We don’t have to “win” anything. Yeah, every so often some fuckheads will put together a training camp, and we should bomb the crap out of it. So what? The real pressure on terrorist orgs comes from normal boring police work, and that includes, guess what, a lot of informants from Muslims who like peace and prosperity and provide intelligence to the cops. > > Osama bin Ladin wishes that this was a global war between Islam and the West. But it ain’t. It’s a few guys with delusions, exactly the same sorts of delusions that the militia movement guys had. It’s fun to play war, it’s fun to imagine yourself an important person. It’s the _exact_ same thing as Columbine, and has the same political and social significance. > [@Lemur866](#): > > Of course we have the winning cards. That’s the point. We’re not in a desperate struggle to save ourselves from conquest. > > Eventually people look around and compare their crappy country to other countries and ask themselves, “Why the fuck is our country a shithole, and their country is pretty decent?” And then they try Communism, and that doesn’t work, then they try Islamism, and that doesn’t work, and eventually they get the idea that the rule of law, democracy, governmental accountability, liberalism, and capitalism is the common thread behind all the non-shithole countries in the world, barring a few petrostates. > > We’ve seen state after state pull themselves from shithole status to mediocrity with a few simple concepts. Of course it isn’t easy, since being a shithole is a vicious cycle that makes simple common sense improvements incredibly difficult. But development is a virtuous cycle where previous improvements make further improvements easier and easier. > > So yeah, it’s not going to be easy and it’s not going to happen any time soon, and we’ll have to clean out training camps with bombs and guns sometimes. But we’re winning, and not because of our brave soldiers and bomber pilots. We have those because we’re so rich that we can afford to squander a heck of a lot of treasure bombing villages halfway across the world. The shiny fleets of bombers are a symptom of our success, not the cause of our success. QFMFT. Best two posts in this thread, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/105 "2011-04-19T16:33:31Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > … we might as well cut our losses. Nothing like the will to persevere. :rolleyes: When the going gets tought, the libs cut 'n run. Hey, sounds like a good campaign slogan for Barry! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/106 "2011-04-19T16:33:40Z")
So ten years on chasing one’s tails around, your solution is double down… The problem of refuge for Al Qaeda is demonstrably an addressable on. On ground intelligence assets, drones, and the like, without occupation or pointless social engineering attempts by foreigners, addresses the issue. And if worse came to worse, the initial Afghan campaign of 2001 could be repeated. Irrational messianic crusading impulses aside. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/107 "2011-04-19T16:34:46Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Compare, contrast, make trip down doesn’t follow fallacy lane. There is no reason to believe anything your imagination conjures up for the ten years ahead time frame unless you are predisposed to making correct predictions about the future. Um.. how about the difference between the two following predictions: 1. The US in the year 2021 will still be a major world power, wielding massive military power projection capability and still a major economic powerhouse with significant commercial interests around the world. 2. Afghanistan in the year 2021 will become the world’s pre-eminent superpower, far eclipsing the US in terms of percentage of global GDP and will be a shining beacon of western style liberalism and effective governance. #1 is not much of a prediction. It’s bound to be close to the true situation in 2021. I don’t need a crystal ball to know #2 is just right out. > [@Nadir](#): > > Got any hot stock tips? 😃 Sure. WAFFLES! Tasty, tasty waffles! ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/108 "2011-04-19T16:34:53Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Nothing like the will to persevere. :rolleyes: > > When the going gets tought, the libs cut 'n run. Hey, sounds like a good campaign slogan for Barry! 😛 Boring. Very boring. I note I am not a leftist, mere rational analysis rather than adolescent chest puffing leads one to get out. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/109 "2011-04-19T16:35:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “There’s no reason to believe” something is going to happen is not the same as “this is not going to happen.” I’m pretty sure you know what kind of statement it was and my assessment of it was right on target. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/110 "2011-04-19T16:38:09Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Nothing like the will to persevere. :rolleyes: Yes, this is the garbage I was addressing earlier. If you’ve screwed up, sticking with it is a bad idea. Persevering in a fool’s errand is still foolish. This would be a stronger argument if there were more signs of progress in Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > When the going gets tought, the libs cut 'n run. Hey, sounds like a good campaign slogan for Barry! 😛 Uh, the fact that Obama said he would pull troops out of Iraq (and later Afghanistan) was one of the reasons he won. People tried the ‘he’s a cut ‘n’ runner!’ thing in 2008 and it didn’t seem to be a big problem for him. > [@Nadir](#): > > I’m pretty sure you know what kind of statement it was Yes, I do: I made the post, so I believe my assessment of my own post over your one-liners. No dice. I wasn’t predicting anything. I said there’s no reason to think Afghanistan will look like Japan or Korea in 10 years, and I stand by that. Do you have a reason to think it _will_ look that way? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/111 "2011-04-19T16:42:47Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We should pay for it to crush our enemies of course. Much of humanity is our enemy, because we are _their_ enemy. The more people we kill and exploit, the more dictators we support, the more people we torture, the more enemies we create. Sitting around in Afghanistan killing more-or-less random people while propping up murderous thugs isn’t going to do anything but make more enemies. And you can forget your fantasies about us trying to make the place better. We aren’t there to do that, we never were, and we never will. We are not nice people, we are not well meaning, we are not benevolent. We are not there to help them. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/112 "2011-04-19T16:57:08Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We have to encourage them to not fall into their old, traditional ways. We have to build a new culture, one that will not allow organizations that attack other countries. How the fuck is America qualified to teach other people about not attacking other countries? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/113 "2011-04-19T17:14:02Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Your point makes even more sense when you realize that you could substitute “USA” for “Afghanistan” and it still sounds about right. I’m pleased somebody spotted that. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/114 "2011-04-19T17:24:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Much of humanity is our enemy, because we are _their_ enemy. The more people we kill and exploit, the more dictators we support, the more people we torture, the more enemies we create. Sitting around in Afghanistan killing more-or-less random people while propping up murderous thugs isn’t going to do anything but make more enemies. > > And you can forget your fantasies about us trying to make the place better. We aren’t there to do that, we never were, and we never will. We are not nice people, we are not well meaning, we are not benevolent. We are not there to help them. There’s no reason to tediously engage in the mirror image of the OPs rhetoric. It’s boring left rot and besides the point. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/115 "2011-04-19T17:28:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Persevering in a fool’s errand is still foolish. This would be a stronger argument if there were more signs of progress in Afghanistan. Unfortunately for you and the gang of liberal armchair quarterbacks around here, you are in the uninformed minority who believe this to be the case. There are many more in Congress, the Administration, and the U.S. general public at large who believe the Afghanistan war is a worthwhile endeavor. You might even consider ther OP’s 1st person perspective contrary to your unsubstantiated dismissive opinions. The loudest group isn’t necessarily “right,” just like “might” doesn’t make “right,” either. Even been to the Middle east, Marley? Ever been outside the country? I’m curious to know just how many of the vocal anti-war peacniks around here have actually seen the real world beyond their rose colored glasses. There’s alot of seriously f-ed up shyt going on around this planet. Ignore it at your peril. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/116 "2011-04-19T17:32:48Z")
Boring retread of canned, generic American jingo-right rhetoric. Very boring. Doesn’t engage anything actually written. Trots out hackneyed phrases. Not even interesting as colour. (Of course for the geographcally challenged, Afghanistan is not in the Middle East, so points lost there as well). ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/117 "2011-04-19T17:36:14Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Unfortunately for you and the gang of liberal armchair quarterbacks around here, you are in the uninformed minority who believe this to be the case. There are many more in Congress, the Administration, and the U.S. general public at large who believe the Afghanistan war is a worthwhile endeavor. You might even consider ther OP’s 1st person perspective contrary to your unsubstantiated dismissive opinions. > > The loudest group isn’t necessarily “right,” just like “might” doesn’t make “right,” either. > > Even been to the Middle east, Marley? Ever been outside the country? I’m curious to know just how many of the vocal anti-war peacniks around here have actually seen the real world beyond their rose colored glasses. > > There’s alot of seriously f-ed up shyt going on around this planet. Ignore it at your peril. And the best way to calm down the region and help solve all the problems in Afghanistan and the Middle East is to send in the US army and millions of tons of freedom bombs? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/118 "2011-04-19T17:39:39Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > How the fuck is America qualified to teach other people about not attacking other countries? He’s just trying to wind people up with this thread. He can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/119 "2011-04-19T17:45:31Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > There’s no reason to tediously engage in the mirror image of the OPs rhetoric. It’s boring left rot and besides the point. Hardly. Much of the reason the OP’s warmed-over White Man’s Burden fantasies _are_ just fantasy is the fact that we aren’t the benevolent overlords he thinks we are. We didn’t go there out of benevolence, and we aren’t there for benevolence now. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/120 "2011-04-19T17:46:35Z")
I didn’t propose ignoring anything, **Nadir**. I didn’t even propose withdrawing from Afghanistan. But speaking of ignoring, your posts aren’t worth my time- so I won’t be responding to any more of your posts unless you make a real argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=7)