# Resolved, the West will Win the GWoT **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826 "2011-04-18T13:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/161 "2011-04-21T13:01:49Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Sorry, but to the unenlightened, narcissistic libs, any effort or expense directed at others is effort and expense not spent on them. :rolleyes: You are describing the conservatives far more than liberals. > [@Nadir](#): > > It would be too difficult (aw, it’s hard, my pussy hurts! :rolleyes:), time consuming and expensive to fulfill globally recognized moral obligations when we as a nation are the only ones really practically capable of shouldering the lion’s share of the burden and leading the rest of the civilized world into a better place. More nonsense. America is a nation built around greed, cruelty and religious fanaticism; we have nether the ability nor the desire to lead anyone anywhere except disaster. > [@Nadir](#): > > Grow up people, and get with the neo-conervative program (sic). I have no interest in conquering and enslaving the world. I have no interest in the neo-con hobbies of torture and mass murder. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So perhaps we ought to change that. What do you think? We are some of the ones mistreating them. It doesn’t matter what we _should_ do; what matters is what we _will_ do, and that’s nothing good. We are a force for tyranny and destruction, not the noble saviors you are trying to pretend we are. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/162 "2011-04-21T13:11:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :We are some of the ones mistreating them. It doesn’t matter what we _should_ do; what matters is what we _will_ do, and that’s nothing good. We are a force for tyranny and destruction, not the noble saviors you are trying to pretend we are. So you are agreed we ought to change that, right? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/163 "2011-04-21T13:15:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So you want to give them a few more centuries… > > What the heck; you just want to let them keep doing what they have been doing? OK, so noted. Your utter contempt for Afghans and their capabilities is duly noted. I restate my position, Afghans will progress better and more sustainably when they are freed from the Messianic missions and game playing of either Russians or Americans or whomever, and build their own consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/164 "2011-04-21T13:16:16Z")
I’m going to duck the whole “ought” thing (that’s a long thread in itself) and just ask: is it possible, and at what cost? I’d like to see oppression wiped out everywhere, but at some point you have to realize doing that through military intervention leads to endless war of practically all against all, which leaves most people worse off than when they started. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/165 "2011-04-21T13:17:28Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Sorry, but to the unenlightened, narcissistic libs, any effort or expense directed at others is effort and expense not spent on them. > > It would be too difficult (aw, it’s hard, my pussy hurts! :rolleyes:), time consuming and expensive to fulfill globally recognized moral obligations when we as a nation are the only ones really practically capable of shouldering the lion’s share of the burden and leading the rest of the civilized world into a better place. > > Bunch of whining crybabies. It’s too hard! I want to go home and take my toys with me! Wah, wah ,wah. > > Grow up people, and get with the neo-conervative program (sic). **Nadir** , you’ve been told about this before (and I don’t mean my post upthread). I’m giving you a formal warning for threadshitting and being a jerk. If you have to post this kind of thing, do it in the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/167 "2011-04-21T13:23:29Z")
Admittedly, it is another issue. I maintain that the West “will” win this fight. Of course, I am willing to take the long view of several centuries. What is so disappointing is those here who have lost all faith in our own liberal underpinnings. People who are happy to be free, healthy and rich but are unwilling to see the moral superiority of our society over those who keep its people enslaved, poxed and poor. They seem to buy into this whole idea of every society being equal and so are unwilling or unable to see evil even when its face is laid bare. Certainly the ways and means of going about our generation’s project are worth debate. What is unsettling is those who are unwilling to even understand what needs to be done. Well, Eric Blair had to deal with Communists and Pacifists too. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/168 "2011-04-21T13:25:43Z")
> [@Kurama](#): > > There is one very simple reason why we cannot ‘get Afghanistan up and running’ as ‘we did’ with South Korea. Their IQ is too low. The IQ of South Koreans, on the other hand, is higher than ours. Wow. Just wow. I’m glad you’re not on my side. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/169 "2011-04-21T13:27:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We are some of the ones mistreating them. It doesn’t matter what we _should_ do; what matters is what we _will_ do, and that’s nothing good. We are a force for tyranny and destruction, not the noble saviors you are trying to pretend we are. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So you are agreed we ought to change that, right? Of course, but we won’t. America as a nation is getting nastier, not nicer. More ruthless, more aggressive, more brutal, more evil. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/170 "2011-04-21T13:32:59Z")
So we are agreed that that ought to be changed, right? I am looking for common ground here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/171 "2011-04-21T13:37:09Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So we are agreed that that ought to be changed, right? True, but what of it? It won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/172 "2011-04-21T13:39:01Z")
I would suppose the first step to making a change is to commit to it. Which side are you on? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/174 "2011-04-21T13:48:32Z")
> [@Kurama](#): > > Yes, I know it may appear to be a harsh statement, but there is very clear evidence to think that this is the case. If it is not, tell me, why is it that free market, technologically advanced and politically stable societies only exist in countries that have a mean IQ of over 90? > > You might want to see this website, written by one of the foremost experts in human intelligence measurement worldwide. > > [http://www.paulcooijmans.com/evolution/](http://www.paulcooijmans.com/evolution/) Oh wonderful, some primitives from the 19th century come along to share 19th century determinism. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/175 "2011-04-21T13:48:37Z")
> [@Kurama](#): > > Yes, I know it may appear to be a harsh statement, but there is very clear evidence to think that this is the case. If it is not, tell me, why is it that free market, technologically advanced and politically stable societies only exist in countries that have a mean IQ of over 90? Because IQ and the term “intelligence” is beyond definition, and so without real meaning. Because IQ tests are culturally biased. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/176 "2011-04-21T13:50:02Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > …I maintain that the West “will” win this fight. Of course, I am willing to take the long view of several centuries. What is so disappointing is those here who have lost all faith in our own liberal underpinnings. … What? Other than Der Trihs and his radical leftism, not a single person here has “lost faith” in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/177 "2011-04-21T13:52:28Z")
> [@Kurama](#): > > Yes, I know it may appear to be a harsh statement, but there is very clear evidence to think that this is the case. If it is not, tell me, why is it that free market, technologically advanced and politically stable societies only exist in countries that have a mean IQ of over 90? > > You might want to see this website, written by one of the foremost experts in human intelligence measurement worldwide. > > [http://www.paulcooijmans.com/evolution/](http://www.paulcooijmans.com/evolution/) We are not doing this again. **Kurama** , I’m temporarily suspending your account while the staff discusses your posting privileges and the prevalence of these kinds of posts on the SDMB of late. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/178 "2011-04-21T13:53:49Z")
You have. You do not understand our civilization is simply better than theirs. You do not recognized evil when it sees you, even when it attacks you. You feel little kinship with your fellowman. You want to take care of yourself and risk nothing for the commonweal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/179 "2011-04-21T13:56:24Z")
**Paul in Qatar** , I would say your post is fraught with internal contradictions except that would be an enormous understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/180 "2011-04-21T13:58:00Z")
Please, go on. I am eager to be corrected. I am like a rat trapped in your terrier-like jaws. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/181 "2011-04-21T14:08:23Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You feel little kinship with your fellowman. > [@](#): > > You do not understand our civilization is simply better than theirs. Read these one after other a couple of times and I hope it’ll sink in. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826/182 "2011-04-21T14:09:37Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You have. You do not understand our civilization is simply better than theirs. Really, I seem to have made a post where I said right out I think Anglo civilisation has great advantages, despite imperfections. What I do understand is I can’t impose that on others - not and keep the values that give the advantage. It’s up to Afghans - not the Great White Father - to make those choices. Or not. > [@](#): > > You do not recognized evil when it sees you, even when it attacks you. Oddly I have been explicitely for stomping on Al Qaeda camps and for that always to be on the menu for a re-intervention for that goal. That seems to correspond poorly with your statement. > [@](#): > > You feel little kinship with your fellowman. Quite the contrary, I believe in not having baseless contempt for my fellow man, and condescend to them that their development requires Nato aerial campaigns and pointless deaths, as well as condescending, sneering “help” to their ‘tyrannical thuggish’ Papas, etc., to make them into Little Americans. > [@](#): > > You want to take care of yourself and risk nothing for the commonweal. Bollocks, I simply am not duped into using civilising mission rhetoric to dress up purely selfish and self-centered security goals in new clothing. Nor am so filled with contempt for local cultures to believe that they can’t evolve their own paths forward. I’ve made the point multiple times I think Western values pass more easily when they are not associated with Nato bombs and sneering, condescending “assistance” to the “backward savages.” Your so-called fellowship is based on them becoming just like you. not bloody good fellowship, that. If and when there is a real Afghan consensus, a stable one, for DFID, USAID, GTZ assistance, fine. Until then, imposing one is replicating the worst aspects of the old colonial civilising mission, which was a general failure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-the-west-will-win-the-gwot/578826.md?page=10)