Well, The thing about leaving Afghanistan and Iraq and the rest of the Mideast to the corrupt hellions running it is because eventually it will collapse upon itself as the Western way of life spreads and grows.
Er, because there is no such thing as an “Afghani” people. The various individual groups may or may not be capable of modern clean government, and in the latter case may or may not get to that point sometime in the current generation – mashed together into an artificial grouping on the map, they’re pretty much hopeless.
Hickup
That sounds so familiar,
Oh, wait, that was People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan that ran the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan that we opposed.
History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.
CMC fnord!
Those are not the sole reasons for continuting the war but they’re a factor.
The American people.
We aren’t occupying every dusty hellhole for the next half-century. Just Afghanistan (for now) in a Korea-like or Japan-like situation.
Because a “can-do attitude” is not a replacement for a plan!
I thought Vietnam had taught us that, but go figure. :smack:
Except Afghanistan is nothing like either Korea or Japan.
Korea was one of the poorest nations in the world in 1950.
Your point makes even more sense when you realize that you could substitute “USA” for “Afghanistan” and it still sounds about right.
The terrain and extreme weather are pretty similar too.
See my post above re geography, ethnic homogeneity, past historical colonial history and regional antagonism, etc.
There is nothing comparable.
FTR I don’t think they are all that comparable either. The OP’s insistence on a “Korea-like” solution just simply won’t work in Afghanistan, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. And also because 1950 America is not 2011 America in the eyes of the world.
This absurd comparison of Afghanistan to Korea has got to stop. It’s almost as bad as Rumsfeld et al comparing the post-Mission Accomplished war in Iraq to the post-war occupation of Germany. The only thing remarkable is how little they have to do with each other; there was no fighting after the German surrender. Let’s compare:
Korea: The US fought a 3 year conventional war alongside South Korea after being invaded by the communist North that ended in a ceasefire with the border barely having moved. US forces are maintained in a friendly (note: not occupying) South Korea to deter a renewal of war. Aside from incidents such as the axe-murders and the seizing of the USS Pueblo there is no fighting or death of American servicemen for the next 60 years up to the present. The US supports dictatorships of Syngman Rhee and subsequent military coups until South Korea moves towards being a functional democracy in the late 80s on its own accord.
Afghanistan: The US invades and deposes the existing government of Afghanistan for harboring Al Qaeda after 9/11. The US backs a puppet government; guerilla warfare ensues for the next ten years up to today with US military personal fighting and dying. Al Qaeda is no longer based in Afghanistan. How is this in any way comparable to the Korean War and the next seven years of South Korean history?
You are all nitpicking. Afghanistan is “over there”, just like North Korea was. They are “Bad Guys”, exactly like North Koreans were. It’s the same! :rolleyes:
To the OP: Was North Korea picked out of thin air because you want a 50 year mandate?
Did Americans also not kill a bunch of innocent South Koreans during the 50 year occupation? That might be another important difference!
Because it’ll all work out in the end?
Just to drive this point home, it’s fairly rare and considered “news” whenever any American serviceman is involved in anything unpleasant in Japan or Korea, and this has been the case for decades. The fact that the few major incidents to have occurred since the surrender of Japan are remembered so well is telling.
By contrast, hearing about American or civilian deaths in Afghanistan isn’t even worth batting an eyelash.
So your saying it is some sort of racial/ethnic thing? East Asians can govern themselves but Central Asians cannot? Homogeneity? Who mentioned it was impossible to govern France as it produced 100 different kinds of cheese? Are there not a bucketload of racially diverse nations who have clean functioning governments?
We have made a lot of mistakes in this war. (We make a lot of mistakes in every war.) We need to adjust our policies. It is remarkable our situation is so good despite our mistakes. Nonetheless the historical momentum is with us.
Feudal states Like Afghanistan, Syria and Saudi Arabia are in the long-term doomed. Sometimes and in some places war will help push them along, in other times and other places, Period Three Grammar and Pepsi will.
Despite it all, we can see change in these regions, and change is in our favor.
Nonsense. The situation isn’t “good”, nor is it a surprise to anyone who has two brain cells to rub together. We are occupying a hostile chaotic hellhole, and propping up a government of thugs while we abuse the populace while spouting self righteous rhetoric. There’s nothing remotely surprising about that, nor is there anything good about it.
Nonsense. There’s no historical momentum here beyond the resentment and resistance of people to foreign occupiers. Judging from the experience of Britain, we could occupy them for centuries and they’d still (justifiably) hate us and be our enemies. And any movement towards democracy is going to be against or efforts, not because of them. We are the enemy of democracy, we work tirelessly against it all over the world, including in Afghanistan.
No it isn’t. Democracy is against us, since we have worked hard to make ourselves so hated.
We are the enemy of Afghanistan, and pretty much everywhere else; we are not trying to make it a better place and never were trying. We are mostly there out of sheer inertia; Bush wanted to conquer Iraq, so he overthrew and occupied Afghanistan in about the fastest, sloppiest way possible to get it out of the way. All we are actually doing is squatting in the mess he made, propping up some thugs and trying to pretend it was a good idea all along because we don’t want to admit it was nothing more than stupidity and malice that got us there.
No, rerread my posts for comprehension. As a rhetorical response this is an utter failure.
No, rerread my posts for comprehension. As a rhetorical response this is an utter failure.
Ethnic homogeneity is a useful ingrediant for stability, it is also a key differentiator of Korea from Afghanistan. Again, failure as a rhetorical response.
Someone you never read in the original and never understood.
Uhhuh.
Knowing the Sovs, they definately said that to themselves in 1987.
Syria? In what way is Syria feudal (or is this one of those lists of random places Americans don’t like)?
Regardless, nothing in Afghanistan’s recent history gives comfort to this simple minded type of view as to the impact
In Afghanistan, bollocks.