:rolleyes: You are describing the conservatives far more than liberals.
More nonsense. America is a nation built around greed, cruelty and religious fanaticism; we have nether the ability nor the desire to lead anyone anywhere except disaster.
I have no interest in conquering and enslaving the world. I have no interest in the neo-con hobbies of torture and mass murder.
We are some of the ones mistreating them. It doesn’t matter what we should do; what matters is what we will do, and that’s nothing good. We are a force for tyranny and destruction, not the noble saviors you are trying to pretend we are.
Your utter contempt for Afghans and their capabilities is duly noted.
I restate my position, Afghans will progress better and more sustainably when they are freed from the Messianic missions and game playing of either Russians or Americans or whomever, and build their own consensus.
I’m going to duck the whole “ought” thing (that’s a long thread in itself) and just ask: is it possible, and at what cost? I’d like to see oppression wiped out everywhere, but at some point you have to realize doing that through military intervention leads to endless war of practically all against all, which leaves most people worse off than when they started.
Nadir, you’ve been told about this before (and I don’t mean my post upthread). I’m giving you a formal warning for threadshitting and being a jerk. If you have to post this kind of thing, do it in the BBQ Pit.
Admittedly, it is another issue. I maintain that the West “will” win this fight. Of course, I am willing to take the long view of several centuries. What is so disappointing is those here who have lost all faith in our own liberal underpinnings. People who are happy to be free, healthy and rich but are unwilling to see the moral superiority of our society over those who keep its people enslaved, poxed and poor.
They seem to buy into this whole idea of every society being equal and so are unwilling or unable to see evil even when its face is laid bare.
Certainly the ways and means of going about our generation’s project are worth debate. What is unsettling is those who are unwilling to even understand what needs to be done.
Well, Eric Blair had to deal with Communists and Pacifists too.
We are not doing this again. Kurama, I’m temporarily suspending your account while the staff discusses your posting privileges and the prevalence of these kinds of posts on the SDMB of late.
You have. You do not understand our civilization is simply better than theirs. You do not recognized evil when it sees you, even when it attacks you. You feel little kinship with your fellowman. You want to take care of yourself and risk nothing for the commonweal.
Really, I seem to have made a post where I said right out I think Anglo civilisation has great advantages, despite imperfections.
What I do understand is I can’t impose that on others - not and keep the values that give the advantage. It’s up to Afghans - not the Great White Father - to make those choices. Or not.
Oddly I have been explicitely for stomping on Al Qaeda camps and for that always to be on the menu for a re-intervention for that goal.
That seems to correspond poorly with your statement.
Quite the contrary, I believe in not having baseless contempt for my fellow man, and condescend to them that their development requires Nato aerial campaigns and pointless deaths, as well as condescending, sneering “help” to their ‘tyrannical thuggish’ Papas, etc., to make them into Little Americans.
Bollocks, I simply am not duped into using civilising mission rhetoric to dress up purely selfish and self-centered security goals in new clothing. Nor am so filled with contempt for local cultures to believe that they can’t evolve their own paths forward. I’ve made the point multiple times I think Western values pass more easily when they are not associated with Nato bombs and sneering, condescending “assistance” to the “backward savages.” Your so-called fellowship is based on them becoming just like you. not bloody good fellowship, that.
If and when there is a real Afghan consensus, a stable one, for DFID, USAID, GTZ assistance, fine. Until then, imposing one is replicating the worst aspects of the old colonial civilising mission, which was a general failure.