# Resolved: there is no principled reasons to punish hate crimes worse... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599 "2008-11-13T21:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/21 "2008-11-13T22:35:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’d say that societal effects should be taken into account, but only if meant. A couple of idiots beating up a gay guy because they happened to see him walking down the street may cause fear in the gay community, but they at the time may just have wanted to beat the crap out of that gay guy. OTOH, it may well be they have a plan to beat up gays, have been stalking him for a while, etc. precisely to cause that fear. In which case, I am reasonably happy with the leeway judges have in sentencing as well as the different laws they’d break to account for the difference. Hate crime laws generally require the state to prove that the perpetrator revealed the hateful motivation, thus preventing the application of hate crime laws to the case in which a gay man is beaten for other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/22 "2008-11-13T22:36:18Z")
I can accept to a small degree the notion of considering some kinds of “hate” motivations as aggravating factors in sentencing. For instance, I think there is a legitimate difference between spray painting Kilroy on a synagogue and spray painting a swastika on a synagogue. The latter has potential to appear more threatening and intimidating, and I think it is worse than just spray painting a name. At the level of murder, though, I don’t see how the motivation matters. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/23 "2008-11-13T22:36:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Anyone care to argue the contrary position Not really - I’m on the fence on this one, but I do think that the terrorism angle makes sense, at least in some cases - a murder committed in defense does not have the same effect, nor has it the same motivation behind it as a murder for intimidation purposes. I also think that circumstances, effects and motivations should be taking into account when deciding on punishment for any act. What I don’t like is the singling out of specific group(ing system)s of people who are deemed “protected” - mostly because there’s no way to write all the groups who might need protection down in law. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/24 "2008-11-13T22:37:25Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I was careless in my wording. Yes, some threats against your neighbor are criminal. But the class of speech that fits into that category (so-called “true threats”) is thought to be smaller than the class of prohibitable speech as it relates to threatening the President. Well, and I may be falling into a trap here, but the idea is that “The President” is bigger than one man. The office itself, and our system of government is being threatened much more so than the life of George W. Bush or Barack Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/25 "2008-11-13T22:38:46Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m very much against changing punishment based on the thoughts of the criminal Well, then, good luck trying to convince the legislatures to equalize the sentences for premeditated murder and negligent homicide… ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/26 "2008-11-13T22:40:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Hate crime laws generally require the state to prove that the perpetrator revealed the hateful motivation, thus preventing the application of hate crime laws to the case in which a gay man is beaten for other reasons. I don’t mean that (in my example) the two might decide to beat up, for alternate reasons, and then not actually find out he’s gay until they’re in court. I’m talking about the difference between beating up a gay person with a hateful motivation towards that one guy, and beating up a gay person with the additional intent to cause fear in many other people by that action. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/27 "2008-11-13T22:41:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So when the meth addict attacks a random person, that puts fear into EVERY member of the community, whereas a hate crime only targets SOME members of the community. > > Under that logic a hate crime should actually get a lesser sentence since fewer people are placed in fear. This. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/28 "2008-11-13T22:42:26Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, then, good luck trying to convince the legislatures to equalize the sentences for premeditated murder and negligent homicide… Apples and oranges. You are talking about the intent to kill and whether or not it is present. Hate crime laws explore the reasons why a person kills another and puts race or another protected class above a myriad of other reasons, giving the impression that the state is punishing a type of thought. For example: I kill someone for their money: 25 years to life I kill someone because I hate blacks: 30 years to life. Simple math tells me that I am getting 5 years in prison for hating blacks. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/29 "2008-11-13T22:42:53Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What if I had a vendetta against people named Johnson? Then I would be targeting an even smaller group of people than a racist. Should I get a double super enhancement to my crime for a murder of a person named Johnson? If you are seeking through your actions to cause fear in another group, yes that should be taken into account in sentencing. So should the extent to which the fear is likely to be credible. So should societal policies. Historically speaking, there is likely to be more credible fear of people in white sheets stringing up young black men from local trees than of people called Johnson being afraid of a person out to kill all people called Johnson. No factor is determinative here. When sentencing, consider multiple factors. Include whether the crime was deliberately intended to cause terror to a particular group in society. Is that so radical? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/30 "2008-11-13T22:45:02Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, then, good luck trying to convince the legislatures to equalize the sentences for premeditated murder and negligent homicide… The difference between those and this is that premeditated murder requires actions rather than just thought on behalf of the murderer. It’s not that the murderer thinks it might be a good idea to take a gun with him to his neighbour’s house, but that he actually does so. Likewise, negligent homicide requires an action or lack of action, rather than simple thoughts of laziness or the like. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/31 "2008-11-13T22:45:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This. Except that example assumes all fear is the same and at the same level. Lynching a black man and planting a fiery cross beside the hanging body sends a very real, very particular message based on history to the black community. A meth addict killing a stranger may well make everyone a little bit more nervous, but it is a qualitatively and quantitevely different fear. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/32 "2008-11-13T22:48:51Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Well, and I may be falling into a trap here, but the idea is that “The President” is bigger than one man. The office itself, and our system of government is being threatened much more so than the life of George W. Bush or Barack Obama. Right. Societal effects. I was only using the example to rebut the notion that we never account for wider effects beyond those felt by the victim. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I don’t mean that (in my example) the two might decide to beat up, for alternate reasons, and then not actually find out he’s gay until they’re in court. I’m talking about the difference between beating up a gay person with a hateful motivation towards that one guy, and beating up a gay person with the additional intent to cause fear in many other people by that action. Well, those two aren’t really distinguishable. If you intend to do something that has the natural effect of causing fear, then you intend to cause fear. In the law, it is generally assumed that you intend the natural, expected consequences of your actions. To assume otherwise is to distort the notion of intention (i.e. I just intended to move my arm with a knife, I didn’t intend to stab anyone, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/33 "2008-11-13T22:53:52Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Except that example assumes all fear is the same and at the same level. Lynching a black man and planting a fiery cross beside the hanging body sends a very real, very particular message based on history to the black community. A meth addict killing a stranger may well make everyone a little bit more nervous, but it is a qualitatively and quantitevely different fear. Not just that: the _intent_ is clearly different: the meth addict doesn’t send a send a message to his brother addicts to rise up and kill everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/34 "2008-11-13T22:54:59Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Not just that: the _intent_ is clearly different: the meth addict doesn’t send a send a message to his brother addicts to rise up and kill everybody. No, the meth addicts sends a message to the neighbors of the deceased that there are crazy people among them willing to torture and murder for reasons best described as ‘insane.’ ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/35 "2008-11-13T22:56:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Well, those two aren’t really distinguishable. If you intend to do something that has the natural effect of causing fear, then you intend to cause fear. In the law, it is generally assumed that you intend the natural, expected consequences of your actions. To assume otherwise is to distort the notion of intention (i.e. I just intended to move my arm with a knife, I didn’t intend to stab anyone, etc.). The problem is the expected part. Anyone can pretty much get that if you make stab someone with a knife it’s not going to do them much good. But I tend to think that in certain situations, especially heated ones, it’s very easy for someone not to think all the effects of their actions through. If someone attacks your family, thoughts of revenge may cross your mind ages before thoughts of what the family of the attacker will think. Hate, in particular, is a pretty blinding emotion. I don’t think it can safely be assumed that hateful attackers of insert-group-member-here can be assumed to have in mind the affects on society at whole - they may just want to beat the crap out of them. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/36 "2008-11-13T22:58:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > No, the meth addicts sends a message to the neighbors of the deceased that there are crazy people among them willing to torture and murder for reasons best described as ‘insane.’ Fair point. Still I don’t think that that would be the addict’s intent. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/37 "2008-11-13T23:01:25Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The problem is the expected part. Anyone can pretty much get that if you make stab someone with a knife it’s not going to do them much good. But I tend to think that in certain situations, especially heated ones, it’s very easy for someone not to think all the effects of their actions through. If someone attacks your family, thoughts of revenge may cross your mind ages before thoughts of what the family of the attacker will think. Hate, in particular, is a pretty blinding emotion. I don’t think it can safely be assumed that hateful attackers of insert-group-member-here can be assumed to have in mind the affects on society at whole - they may just want to beat the crap out of them. Then I think that goes back to the distinction between beating up a gay man because I secretly hate him for being gay–which wouldn’t be punished as a hate crime since there is no evidence of my hate–and beating up a gay man while yelling hateful epithets. It is the contemporaneous expression of hatred which one can reasonably expect to incite fear and vengeance in members of the hated community (and others). Which, to take this full circle, is why I think hate crimes are a bad idea. Because at their core they are criminalizing expressions of hate, which are protected by the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/38 "2008-11-13T23:05:24Z")
All that distinguishes unfortunate tragedy and accident from manslaughter and homicide is intent. Intent plays an enormous role in determining what to do with a criminal. I seriously cannot imagine what society would be like if we did not act in this completely normal way. Anticipating and seeking to understand people’s motivations are how I don’t go crazy with hate and fear every second of the day. It would be a disgusting and perverse “justice” system that did not incorporate this basic element of human existence. In fact, it is precisely things like mandatory minimum sentences that destroy justice, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/39 "2008-11-13T23:07:05Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Fair point. Still I don’t think that that would be the addict’s intent. I’ve found that, when someone is threatening me with physical harm, analyzing tht person’s motivations is fairly low priority. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599/40 "2008-11-13T23:10:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ve found that, when someone is threatening me with physical harm, analyzing tht person’s motivations is fairly low priority. But intent is central to criminal law, especially homicide law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-there-is-no-principled-reasons-to-punish-hate-crimes-worse/472599.md?page=3)