Really? What’s your evidence that the average starting computer programmer puts in anywhere near the same hours as the average starting teacher?
I was one, and I know plenty. Starting computer programmers who only work 40 hours a week won’t end up as ending computer programmers.
You have no point to make, and you’re missing the opportunity to make valid points by arguing with me.
So you don’t believe teachers do work outside of the classroom? Have you ever taught? It’s like saying actors only work when they are on stage.
Every profession has its downtime quirks. Firefighters spend 90% of their time staring at the walls, and 10% in extreme action.
Heck, even people with the same job may work vastly different hours. Some people work at home and sit at their desk 8 straight hours, others are able to complete their tasks quickly and spend much of the day kicking back and doing errands. Some professionals work a simple 9-5 and leave their work at work. Others put in hours on the side entertaining clients and dealing with emails. Some people can spend hours on Facebook and the SDMB, as long as their work is done and they are physically present. Others need to be on task every minute, even if their work is complete. Some people can leave early, some need to stay late.
Teachers accept a compensation package that includes several months off. If you want to take away some of their compensation, you need to make up for that somewhere else or lower your hiring standards.
Do you have anything beyond anecdote? I ask because I certainly believe this is the case at some companies, but not all–and I also suspect that companies who require significantly more than 40 hours a week pay significantly better than the starting salary.
This post really stuck in my craw.
My kids work for an extra hour a day at home on their school work six days a week including in the summer. But they are struggling. They each started out about 2 years behind when they came to us and are now ONLY about one year behind. We work our asses off for our kids.
Just because your kid isn’t doing as well as the others doesn’t mean you are a lazy parent. It might just mean that your kid isn’t good at school or has a disability.
I can only imagine how hard the long summer break is for kids with autism or adhd. Changing gears for these kids is hard and just when they get used to the ‘relaxed’ pace of summer, they have to change all over again.
Not to mention that the idyllic lazt summers of our youth are no longer the reality. Most kids come from households where both parents work. So, the kids are shuttled from ‘camp’ to ‘camp’ (basically daycare) all summer. They don’t actually get that time to hang out at home and just be kids anyway so why not keep them in school.
I am all for a year-round school year. I am not sure there need to be more instruction hours or days. Shorter breaks would be great. We worked with our kids every day over the summer and they still went backwards in some subjects (namely, math for my son). A couple of weeks would have made getting back on track much easier.
My anecdotes cover hundreds of people over a 40 year time span. Do you have anything at all to indicate differently? And you are incorrect about the starting salaries. Computer programmers starting out, like teachers, will vary in the amount of time they work over scheduled hours. But initially many will have to put in 20-40 additional hours to fix their mistakes, develop their art, and keep up with ever changing technology. And they’ve probably been putting in those unpaid hours for years beforehand to get to the level of expertise needed for their job in the first place. For the percentage that excel it is a very financially rewarding profession, the same kind of rewards that teachers who excel should be able to receive but generally don’t. But for most computer programmers, it is a time consuming, competitive environment with little tolerance for missed deadlines and problems that crop up later.
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I’d like to get back to the point of this thread, something I’m sure you could contribute a lot to. I haven’t seen any strong evidence of a direct relationship between extended time in class per student and a better education. And I think the problem with teacher pay is the system that makes teaching a part time job instead of full time. We may disagree on some points, but I have a feeling you would agree that full time teachers used to reduce class size instead of extending annual classroom time would produce better results.
I’m still unconvinced of what you say about computer programmer hours (not that I think you’re wrong, just not yet convinced you’re right), but sure, we can drop that.
The evidence I’ve seen suggests that more, shorter breaks does work better. And I certainly agree with people who believe not all learning happens in the classroom: camps, family vacations, crafts with grandma, hikes with granddad, etc. are vital parts of a good education. Finally, on the rare occasions when I have unbroken time to create lessons, the lessons I create kick some serious butt (e.g., a unit on soil and erosion that involved writing press releases, studying the interplay between Haiti’s economy and ecology, performing hands-on science experiments, working with a local nonprofit to restore an eroding riverbank, and blogging about the whole experience). When lesson-planning is relegated to the end of the day, or during lunch, or whatever, they’re not always as good (would you be on your best mental game after 6.5 hours of corralling and teaching 9-year-olds?)
So my proposal isn’t that we increase the school year for students significantly. Rather, let’s give more, shorter breaks. Let’s have teachers work a few extra weeks, perhaps during some of those breaks, and let them devise killer lessons or attend professional development or whatever during that time. And let’s pay teachers accordingly.
(Disclaimer: when I talk about teacher pay, I speak about North Carolina pay, some of the lowest in the nation. I can’t really speak authoritatively about pay in other states, especially states where unions guarantee teachers earn decent money).
Tripolar, teaching is a part-time job? That’s insulting. You are aware that every teacher has to work a significant number of extra hours just to do the bare minimum of marking and planning? Just that minimum would bring their hours up to easily the same as your computer programmers, and then, while I’m sure a lot of computer programmers do work extra hours for no extra money, so do teachers. ‘Part-time,’ ridiculous.
I don’t know what the national averages are either. But they’re probably not way out of line with what we’ve been discussing.
Do you think the long summer break is significant because of the associated ‘amnesia’? I’m not sure I believe that is a major problem.
What do you think about classroom size? I really think the whole structure of school hours and classes is more oriented toward practical management than the best education. Clearly resource limitations require some of that, but I really think top level teachers should be spending more time on direct instruction with the minimal number of students possible, while less experienced or even less qualified personnel could deal with homework checking, monitoring and grading tests, etc. I don’t see many equivalents to the structure outside of schools, usually different tiers of people attack problems at different levels of expertise and knowledge, while teachers seem to be required to be a jack-of-all trades in the profession. Too much specialized organization might interfere with student-teacher relationships, which are important, so it’s not something can be broken apart like an assembly line either. I can certainly detect problems in the system, but I am interested in your opinion of these things because I’m not an educator, and I don’t know what possible alternatives have been tried of could be.
Read the thread. You are wrong. It’s not my idea for how it should work, it’s reality. Most salaried people work many extra hours over the scheduled time. Teachers are not some specialized exception.
And I’m not calling it part time to be insulting. It is an unquestionable fact that the scheduled hours for teacher are noticeably less than for most white collar jobs.
And I’m done on this subject. Take all the offense you want, it’s unfounded.
FWIW, I work around 35 hours a week with a new MA and I make nearly double what I’d make as a new teacher. Some positions require long hours, some don’t. Frankly you sound jealous. If its so easy street, why isn’t teaching the most competitive job in the US?
Please point out anywhere that I stated it was anything like ‘easy street’ for teachers. Your post tells me you are making way too much money at whatever you do because it doesn’t reflect any ability to comprehend simple English.
I’m sorry, I assumed you believe that part time jobs are easier than full time ones.
I was once a starting computer programmer, and my wife was once a starting teacher. She put in a LOT more time after hours those first years than I did. I mean, sure there were crunch times for me but she was working almost every evening and every weekend. I’m still a programmer and she’s still a teacher.
If there was another thread on this subject I’d discuss it further, but I think it’s a hijack of this one, and not something easily resolved since it will primarily be based on anecdotes.
I am not ‘wrong’ about teachers always having to work more hours than those listed - it would be physically impossible for the basics like marking to be done otherwise. And I’m not claiming only teachers work extra hours - in the post you quoted, I agreed that computer programmers often work extra hours too.
By the numbers you yourself are using, it is factually incorrect to call teaching part time, and it is very dismissive.
If you want to hash this you can start another thread. But apart from the subject at hand, I was a little short with you, I keep getting hit with claims about something I didn’t say, so I overreacted a little. I apologize.
As a teacher, I would be totally down with getting paid to do professional development over the summer.
When can we make that happen?
The summer off is nice, no doubt, but it’s unpaid, and it’s tougher than you think convincing somebody to hire you for just a few months at a decent wage.
That’s great - I love that you work with your kids and you should be congratulated. But there is a growing sentiment in this country that schools should be taking over more and more of a kids time, and I find that sad and disturbing. As adults, my kids are going to be expected to work the 9-5 grind, and I want them to have a time in their life when they’re not constantly plugged into the stress of achievement
There’s nothing wrong with kids going from camp to camp, or staying at grandma’s all summer. Because it is a low pressure environment, they can have the time to perfect kite flying or roller skating, instead of math and science. They can read for pleasure instead of for grades, and they can write about whatever they want instead of a writing drill that’s subject to the judgment of a red pen. School is a much different environment than a day camp, and it’s pretty much never relaxing or fun.
If school went year round, my kids and our family as a whole would be severely impacted in terms of life experience. We take a week in the summer for a vacation, and the kids spend a week in summer camp as well (two weeks as they get older). That plan would be gone, since we would either have to jettison our vacation or skip summer camp. Why, exactly, should we have to do that, if our kids do not suffer from having summers off? We live in a four season area, and can’t afford four plane tickets, so one or the other would have to go. We would effectively be punished.
Some kids needs some help, some kids need lots of help, and some kids don’t need any extra help at all. Why punish the ones who can utilize a free summer for just living life without the pressure?
Not to mention the excellent points raised above about the absolutely devastating effect this would have on the “summertime” economy. That’s would be a lot less trips to amusement parks and arcades and the beach. And - my daughter is a junior in high school, and has lots of friends who work full time in the summer to save for college. What about them?
I just don’t see the desire to limit the opportunities for the more advanced kids. It 's a little Harrison Bergeron to me.