# Resolved: Wisconsin Republicans continue to try to subvert democratic processes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839 "2011-07-13T04:55:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/1 "2011-07-13T04:55:25Z")
Back in March I started [a thread to discuss how Wisconsin Republicans were subverting democratic processes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=602138). That thread focussed on how they did an end around on the legislative process and lied to the voting public about the issues in order to pass a bill stripping unions of their right to bargain collectively (which seems to me to show a disdain for the right of the people to freely assemble). Anyway, it seems that the Republicans dislike for democracy is alive and well in Wisconsin. As many are aware, many of the Republican legislators were being subject to recall elections over their conduct and passage of the anti-union bill. So what did the Republicans do to fight the charges that they were not acceding to the will of their constituents? They put candidates on the recall election ballot who were listed as Democrats, but were not. Luckily, it doesn’t appear to have fooled enough voters to have changed the outcome of the elections. [ > [@](#): > > The state Republican Party orchestrated the placement of the fake Democrats on Tuesday’s ballot, thereby delaying the general election for a month. That gave the Republican incumbents more time to campaign and distance themselves from the turmoil over the union law that they voted to support in March, spurring the recall efforts. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_WISCONSIN\_RECALLS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&utm\_source=feedburner&utm\_medium=feed&utm\_campaign=Feed%3A+tbo%2Fap%2Fusnews+(AP+Top+U.S.+News)](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_RECALLS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tbo%2Fap%2Fusnews+%28AP+Top+U.S.+News%29)) For instance: > [@](#): > > [Shelley] Moore defeated Isaac Weix, a Republican on the ballot as a Democrat who had previously run twice before and lost as a GOP candidate for the state Assembly. The St. Croix County Republican Party sent emails and paid for phone calls on behalf of Weix, urging Republicans to support him in the Democratic primary. Are the Republicans embarrassed over their actions to subvert the laws and ideals of our country and of their state? Apparently not: > [@](#): > > State Republican Party spokeswoman Katie McCallum said the results were an embarrassment for Moore but that ultimately Tuesday’s elections wouldn’t change the approach being taken by any of the incumbents. I’m aghast at what is happening in Wisconsin, and can only hope this isn’t a precursor of what’s to come in other states or on a national level. Is there anyone who will support this, or even try and claim it’s just “normal politics”? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/2 "2011-07-13T04:59:16Z")
And we’re back to beating the same old drum… The Dem Senators subverted democracy by taking up residence in the Clock Tower Inn in Rockford, IL ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/3 "2011-07-13T05:02:48Z")
That’s it? A pathetic attempt at a _tu quoque_ is all you got, **flickster**? Are you arguing that what the Republicans did was okay? I mean, if that was what you meant, would you just say it clearly? ---
**Author:** ![Orr\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@Orr\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orr_G)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/4 "2011-07-13T06:29:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s it? A pathetic attempt at a _tu quoque_ is all you got, **flickster**? Are you arguing that what the Republicans did was okay? I mean, if that was what you meant, would you just say it clearly? It is a pretty crappy _tu quoque_, because there’s a much better one available: apparently the Dems in WI ran a fake GOP candidate not long ago (can’t seem to find the cite, as all the results are showing the converse right now). My wife tells me that she even got an e-mail from the Wisconsin Dems when it happened. Her take on the e-mail was that it was kind of apologetic, explaining what they were doing and acknowledging that many Democrats would not support such a tactic, but suggesting that you could go vote for the fake Republican if it didn’t bother you. I think it’s a sad state of affairs, and I’m especially upset that the Democrats were so stupid as to sink so low - their one-time affair opens the door for the Republicans to do this again and again with some justification. Not that they need it, but I always prefer it when they don’t have any justification to behave poorly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/5 "2011-07-13T06:53:28Z")
> **[Wisconsin GOP to pass redistricting before the recall elections](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/07/12/993578/-Wisconsin-GOP-to-pass-redistricting-before-the-recall-elections)** > > The recall elections against six Wisconsin ... It gets “better”. Seeing the liklihood of the voters overturning thier majority the Pubbies of Wisconsin are rushing to get their redistricting plan in place to cement their advantage. An advantage, I hasten to point out, that may no longer be legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/6 "2011-07-13T08:33:33Z")
> [@Orr\_G](#): > > It is a pretty crappy _tu quoque_, because there’s a much better one available: apparently the Dems in WI ran a fake GOP candidate not long ago (can’t seem to find the cite, as all the results are showing the converse right now). My wife tells me that she even got an e-mail from the Wisconsin Dems when it happened. Her take on the e-mail was that it was kind of apologetic, explaining what they were doing and acknowledging that many Democrats would not support such a tactic, but suggesting that you could go vote for the fake Republican if it didn’t bother you. > > I think it’s a sad state of affairs, and I’m especially upset that the Democrats were so stupid as to sink so low - their one-time affair opens the door for the Republicans to do this again and again with some justification. Not that they need it, but I always prefer it when they don’t have any justification to behave poorly. I did my own searching, to see if my google fu could uncover anything, and so far it looks like your memory is faulty. All of the blogs and news article I read contain quotes and other info that makes me think this is the first time either party has tried to pull this kind of thing. This is the most definitive statement I’ve yet read, tho: [ > [@DPW Chairman Mike Tate](#): > > The unprecedented Republican manipulation of these recall elections has compelled a number of people to urge a level playing field by running fake candidates in GOP primaries. > > We cannot and will not stoop to the Republicans’ level by encouraging candidates to lie about their party affiliation, or recommending that people try to deceive voters. We never have done that, and won’t start now. ]([Wisconsin Dems won't run fake candidates in GOP primaries](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/11/984283/-Wisconsin-Dems-wont-run-fake-candidates-in-GOP-primaries)) So, no, the Democrats have not done the same thing, either now or in the past, according to their state party chairman. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/7 "2011-07-13T08:49:55Z")
The only thing I can think of is that the Democrats were planning to run other real Democrats in _their own primaries_ this time around so that they could keep all of the recall elections on the same schedule, but then the Republicans found fake Democrats for each race, so the Democrats withdrew their own second candidates. (Had there not been a primary in every race, then the general elections would have been on different dates.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/8 "2011-07-13T09:15:27Z")
I wonder how much forcing primary elections cost Wisconsin. Glad to see the republicans are concerned about fiscal responsibility. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![badger197](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@badger197](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badger197)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/9 "2011-07-13T10:11:14Z")
The controversy to which Orr, G. alludes happened during the 2010 election involving [Robert Ziegelbauer](http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Robert_Ziegelbauer), of Manitowoc, the State Assembly’s only Independent member. As the Ballotpedia page explains, Ziegelbauer was a Democrat from 1992 until 2008. He often voted with the Republicans, and in 2008 he left the Democratic caucus. In the 2010 election, Ziegelbauer ran as an Independent. In the general election, he had one Democratic challenger. He also had a controversial Republican challenger, [Andrew Wisniewski](http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Andrew_Wisniewski). As Ballotpedia explains: “Wisniewski’s nomination papers were delivered by Jason Sidener, who is a political action representative for AFSCME (American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees). Sidener defended the nomination as a Republican candidate by saying ‘It is in our interest to see that Bob is defeated and having opponents from both parties helps that.’ His Democratic opponent Kerry Trask is also endorsed by AFSCME, but the third opponent Independent Robert Ziegelbauer is not.” Wisniewski’s candidacy was aided and abetted by AFSCME not the Wisconsin Democratic Party. It was a sleazy tactic then when AFSCME did it, and it’s a sleazy tactic now when the WIS GOP does it. Oh, and to reply, to Flickster, who wrote: “The Dem Senators subverted democracy by taking up residence in the Clock Tower Inn in Rockford, IL.” The Democratic Senators decamping to Illinois to deny the Republicans a quorum “subverted democracy” exactly as much as any filibuster ever undertaken in the United States Senate. Both are legal political maneuvers to delay or slow the political process. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/10 "2011-07-13T12:56:58Z")
**badger** , I’m not seeing the parallel. Wisniewski was a Republican, right? And he ran as one. So in the general election, there were 3 candidates: a Republican, a Democrat, and an Independent. I don’t see how this is the same as running a Republican _as a Democrat_ in the primaries, which could have resulted in 2 Republicans in the general election, one with -R after his name and one with -D after his name. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/11 "2011-07-13T13:05:50Z")
> [@badger197](#): > > Oh, and to reply, to Flickster, who wrote: “The Dem Senators subverted democracy by taking up residence in the Clock Tower Inn in Rockford, IL.” > > The Democratic Senators decamping to Illinois to deny the Republicans a quorum “subverted democracy” exactly as much as any filibuster ever undertaken in the United States Senate. > > Both are legal political maneuvers to delay or slow the political process. Correct. If the rules are made via the democratic process, then using the rules to your advantage can hardly be called a subversion of the process. The Democrats had every right to deny their opponents a quorum by leaving the chamber, and suggestions to the contrary are simply wrong. This is a valid political tactic that’s been used by both parties at state and national level. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/12 "2011-07-13T13:13:33Z")
I thought we settled the whole thing about the Democrats not being there to vote as not subverting the process in the last thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/13 "2011-07-13T13:51:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I thought we settled the whole thing about the Democrats not being there to vote as not subverting the process in the last thread. Well, I don’t know about “settled,” since few participants in GD are willing to forthrightly acknowledge error, but I don’t recall anyone defending the proposition that the denial of quorum tactic “subverted” democracy in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![badger197](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@badger197](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badger197)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/14 "2011-07-13T17:40:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > **badger** , I’m not seeing the parallel. > > Wisniewski was a Republican, right? And he ran as one. > > So in the general election, there were 3 candidates: a Republican, a Democrat, and an Independent. > > I don’t see how this is the same as running a Republican _as a Democrat_ in the primaries, which could have resulted in 2 Republicans in the general election, one with -R after his name and one with -D after his name. Wisniewski ran as a Republican, but he was put forward as a spoiler candidate to draw votes away from Ziegelbauer and to improve the chances of the Democratic candidate. See this [Green Bay Press Gazette](http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100725/GPG0101/7250664/Wisconsin-Assembly-candidate-Andrew-Wisniewski-put-back-ballot) article from the time of the election. The Gazette wrote: “The Republican Party actually tried to prevent Andrew Wisniewski from being on the ballot in the 25th Assembly District race, arguing in part that he doesn’t really represent the GOP and his candidacy was a sham pushed by Democrats designed to rig the election.” And Ziegelbauer, himself, told the Gazette: “It’s pretty obvious to everyone that the Madison Democratic machinery put up a fake candidate to put a name on the ballot because they think it will screw up our election in the 25th Assembly District.” Although, again, it seems AFSCME - which endorsed Wisniewski and and the Democratic candidate - and not the Wisconsin Democratic Party orchestrated the sham candidacy of Wisniewski. ---
**Author:** ![Orr\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@Orr\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orr_G)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/15 "2011-07-13T18:36:49Z")
I still can’t find the blog I came across just the other day, but if **badger197** is correct, then my cite, even if it could be produced, would be pretty poor indeed for having given such a slanted view of the Wisniewski situation. As for my wife, I blame myself for prompting her - her vague recollection of whatever e-mail she received was undoubtedly skewed. Well, I feel better about the WI Democrats, but worse about my own google-fu. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/16 "2011-07-13T18:40:39Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > The Dem Senators subverted democracy by taking up residence in the Clock Tower Inn in Rockford, IL I thought it was in the Billiard Room with the candlestick. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/17 "2011-07-13T19:03:57Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > The Dem Senators subverted democracy by taking up residence in the Clock Tower Inn in Rockford, IL Disagree. Denying quorum, on an anti-democracy scale of 1 to 10, rates a 3-4 at most. Lying about your party affiliation to force a change in election timing is in the 7-8 range. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-wisconsin-republicans-continue-to-try-to-subvert-democratic-processes/588839/18 "2011-07-15T15:08:37Z")
> [@badger197](#): > > Wisniewski ran as a Republican, but he was put forward as a spoiler candidate to draw votes away from Ziegelbauer and to improve the chances of the Democratic candidate. Ah, okay. But that’s how all elections are. I mean, there’s a bunch of candidates and people vote for them. I see where the motives of ASCME are suspect (at best), but it doesn’t even come close to the level of nakedly cynical fraud being perpetrated in this current election.