# Resolving a Mattress Fund? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760 "2012-01-07T20:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/21 "2012-01-08T03:14:29Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I want to know how exactly the bank knows that is what you’re doing. How does the bank know where the money comes from? I doubt if the bank cares. But a case could be made by the IRS based upon deposit practices, or at least suspicion could be raised (you deposit $9K each month, but your W-2 income is half of that). ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/22 "2012-01-08T03:24:08Z")
I’m not sure why people get all worked up about reporting, the government doesn’t care about people conducting legal business. They want reporting done for a number of reasons, it isn’t to rake law abiding citizens over to coals or try to steal their money in taxes. Filling the over 10k forms takes less then a minute and I’ve never had even an inquiry afterwords. Several times conducting legal business overseas I’ve come back with large amounts of currency. They ask, I answer honestly and move on. Take the money and deposit it, fill out the form and move on. This isn’t worth stressing about or even giving a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/23 "2012-01-08T03:40:02Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I would imagine MOST of the bills they get are from 1960’s onward. Onward does mean in the forward direction, time-wise, doesn’t it? I just meant they won’t be used to seeing large amounts of bills from each decade up until the present day. Old coins are normal. Old bills aren’t. Still, I would just follow the advise here and deposit it all confidently. There are no taxes to be paid or any laws broken. There is nothing anyone can do about it even if it did raise suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/24 "2012-01-08T15:59:35Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I want to know how exactly the bank knows that is what you’re doing. How does the bank know where the money comes from? The bank is obligated by law to try to detect your attempts at structuring. So their software looks at the pattern of your deposits. If you trip the trigger, they’ll report what they found. It’s up to the Feds to decide to do anything with that info. The bank doesn’t know or care where the money originally came from or how you came into possession of it. All they know or care is that IF you’re depositing cash, THEN they have to keep an eye on you & report what they observe IF you cross certain thresholds. My wife’s a banking attorney. She deals with CTR & structuring issues fairly regularly. The right answer is for the OP’s friend to go down to the bank, deposit all the money at one go, fill out the CTR form & go home safe & happy. That form will disappear into the maw of the Fed’s computers & sit there ignored forever, just like the Ark of the Covenant at the end of _Raiders of the Lost Ark_. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/25 "2012-01-08T16:08:37Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It does suck that a person can’t even keep their own cash without raising suspicion especially since many banks charge you just to keep your money there. Do you mean that there are no simple saving banks in the US where people can put their savings, earn 1-2% interest without paying a fee that eats everything up, keeping the inflation from eating the money? (Are Savings and Loans or Credit Unions these types of banks, but you didn’t count them under “normal” banks?) Can she exchange the old bills at the Federal Bank, so as not to get problems with cashiers if she decides to spend the cash instead? I would always advise against under-the-mattress, not only because of inflation eating the money, while a savings account brings interest, but also because of the too-many stories of how that mattress/ cupboard etc. was thrown out by clueless relatives during some renovation, because those people generally neglect to tell anybody (for “security” reasons). ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/26 "2012-01-08T16:33:52Z")
What about asset forfeiture? Can the government try to seize the cash if somehow authorities noticed it in her house during a call? > **[United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_v._$124,700)** > > United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency, 458 F.3d 822 (8th Cir. 2006), was a decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit that was handed down on August 18, 2006. > The form of the styling of this case—the defendant being an object, rather than a legal person—is because this is a jurisdiction in rem (power over objects) case, rather than the more familiar in personam (over persons) case. In current US legal practice, in rem is most widely used in the area of ... Can they seize it if you deposit it even? Notice in this case there was no evidence of any criminal activity, just a guy with a lot of cash. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/27 "2012-01-08T16:54:28Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Do you mean that there are no simple saving banks in the US where people can put their savings, earn 1-2% interest without paying a fee that eats everything up, keeping the inflation from eating the money? (Are Savings and Loans or Credit Unions these types of banks, but you didn’t count them under “normal” banks?) > … Short answer: Yes there are. Long answer: In the US the three main flavors of retail financial insuttions are banks, savings & loans, and credit unions. Most US folks use the term “bank” loosely to mean all 3. All offer a savings vehicle which pays a modest interest. Over most of the last 50 years the nominal rates have been inflation plus or minus a couple percent, but usually positive net of inflation. Historically there were no fees on these types of accounts but nowadays maintenance fees are common unless the balance is non-trivial. Maintaining a $1000 minimum balance to get a monthly fee waiver is a common threshold. As a rule of thumb, true banks are the least consumer-friendly, while credit unions are the most consumer-friendly. And recently it’s hard to find anybody paying interest equal to the headline rate of inflation, much less the actual rate of inflation. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/28 "2012-01-08T17:07:39Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What about asset forfeiture? Can the government try to seize the cash if somehow authorities noticed it in her house during a call? > > [United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_v._$124,700) > > Can they seize it if you deposit it even? > > Notice in this case there was no evidence of any criminal activity, just a guy with a lot of cash. Damn near anything is _possible_, including a meteor hitting her house & smashing all the money to smithereens. What matters is what’s _likely_. Even in the infamous case you cited, the original court decision was that forfeiture was not appropriate. The appeals court disagreed & sent the case back down for further trial. At least as far as is documented in the wiki article, the fate of the money is not yet decided. Yes, the civil forfeiture laws of this country aren’t consistent with any traditional notions of fairness, constitutionality, burdens of proof, or criminal law. OTOH, they’re not presently actually being used to round up little old lady’s life savings \*en masse \*either. The OP’s friend has a risk management problem. As between drug task forces seizing her money and random burglars seizing her money I know which one I’d be concerned about. And it ain’t the Feds. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/29 "2012-01-08T17:12:29Z")
Some of the old bills may be worth more than their face value, depending on their condition. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/30 "2012-01-08T17:15:56Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Damn near anything is _possible_, including a meteor hitting her house & smashing all the money to smithereens. What matters is what’s _likely_. > > Even in the infamous case you cited, the original court decision was that forfeiture was not appropriate. The appeals court disagreed & sent the case back down for further trial. At least as far as is documented in the wiki article, the fate of the money is not yet decided. > > Yes, the civil forfeiture laws of this country aren’t consistent with any traditional notions of fairness, constitutionality, burdens of proof, or criminal law. OTOH, they’re not presently actually being used to round up little old lady’s life savings \*en masse \*either. > The OP’s friend has a risk management problem. As between drug task forces seizing her money and random burglars seizing her money I know which one I’d be concerned about. And it ain’t the Feds. I was actually speaking to those telling her to just keep it in her house, but with all the worry about bank deposits I was curious if a large deposit has ever triggered a seizure too. I don’t think the feds give a crap about whether you’re a young punk or a little old lady. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/31 "2012-01-08T17:25:48Z")
> [@grude](#): > > … > I don’t think the feds give a crap about whether you’re a young punk or a little old lady. The wiki you cited indicates that of the three appellate judges, one dissented: > [@wiki](#): > > Senior Circuit Judge Donald P. Lay, a Lyndon B. Johnson appointee to the Eighth Circuit, dissented, concluding "I cannot agree that the government has proven, by a preponderance of the evidence, the requisite \*substantial \*connection between the currency and a _controlled substance offense_. If they can generate the substantial connection between the little old lady & the drugs trade, then yes, they won’t differentiate between a young punk & a little old lady. If you really mean that you believe the Federal Courts are essentially crooked & will often decide with little or no regard for the evidence then there’s not much more we can usefully talk about. The Courts are far from perfect; they aren’t however, widely corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/32 "2012-01-08T17:40:59Z")
Hello? How about different banks, savings & loans, credit unions? Surely there is more than one “financial institution” in your town? And if the LOL (little old lady) shows up at the bank with the money in a SOCK, it might lend more credibility to her story! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/33 "2012-01-08T18:57:59Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Hello? How about different banks, savings & loans, credit unions? Surely there is more than one “financial institution” in your town? Still counts as “structuring”. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/34 "2012-01-08T22:01:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not only is it completely legal to keep your money in a mattress and deposit it in one large chunk – it’s NOT legal to follow **drachillix** ’s suggestion. Structuring cash deposits in an effort to avoid bank reporting is not legal, regardless of the money’s ancestry. Yeah, but if she deposits $1-2K a month every month consistently for a couple years nobody is going to even notice. There are alot of cash employees and low grade self employed types out there. I’m no tax protestor but I do understand folks that prefer not to draw notice to themselves. Go in throwing $9,500 a month for 4 months, yes they are going to think you are playing them. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/35 "2012-01-08T22:15:37Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Yeah, but if she deposits $1-2K a month every month consistently for a couple years nobody is going to even notice. There are alot of cash employees and low grade self employed types out there. I’m no tax protestor but I do understand folks that prefer not to draw notice to themselves. You realize that what you are suggesting is a clear violation of Federal law, right? It isn’t even debatable. Whatever you may think of the chances of being caught and charged with structuring, it is a felony; whereas depositing large amounts of cash is totally legal, and there’s no reason to believe that there would be any requirement to pay taxes on income earned a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/36 "2012-01-09T01:39:55Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I’m no tax protestor but I do understand folks that prefer not to draw notice to themselves. Those people are paranoid and delusional. Those same people might not walk down the street because the ‘law’ might suspect them of a crime. It’s legal to deposit large amount of money and walk down the street, not doing so because you think something bad’s going to happen is just putting you one more step closer to the nut house. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/37 "2012-01-09T02:01:41Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Just deposit it in small chunks IIRC they do not consider things to be “reportable” until you cross $10K. > > Dropping $2K-$5K into a savings account will not even make a teller blink. They see that kind of cash hourly. > > Wait a month or so, drop in another couple thousand, lather rinse repeat. > > Might take a few months but it will all go in cleanly and without setting off any alarms. NO, no **NO!!!** This is “structuring” - a Federal crime. Just deposit it all at once. A CTR doesn’t really set off any alarms - unless you are already being looked at for other issues. In her case, there is a tiny chance she could get picked for a tax audit, in which case she simply tells the truth. A “cash hoard” is a beleivable and well used excuse, and will only be automatically discounted if she lives well beyond her means or they can show a source of cash income, esp illegal cash income. Assuming your friend is not selling dope on the side- just follow the law, deposit it all at once. I am CAMS certified, thus I am a expert on money laundering laws. IANAL, however. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/38 "2012-01-09T02:04:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not only is it completely legal to keep your money in a mattress and deposit it in one large chunk – it’s NOT legal to follow **drachillix** ’s suggestion. Structuring cash deposits in an effort to avoid bank reporting is not legal, regardless of the money’s ancestry. > > She should consult a lwayer or an accountant if she has any concerns, but she can simply deposit the money and fill out the cash transaction report required, explaining that this was money kept at home for long periods of time. The age of the bills will corroborate her story. > > Obviously, she can’t show up in six months with ANOTHER $50,000 dollars and the same story. **Bricker** is completely, 100% right…including the last part. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/39 "2012-01-09T02:07:44Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The bank is obligated by law to try to detect your attempts at structuring. So their software looks at the pattern of your deposits. If you trip the trigger, they’ll report what they found. It’s up to the Feds to decide to do anything with that info. > > The bank doesn’t know or care where the money originally came from or how you came into possession of it. All they know or care is that IF you’re depositing cash, THEN they have to keep an eye on you & report what they observe IF you cross certain thresholds. > > My wife’s a banking attorney. She deals with CTR & structuring issues fairly regularly. The right answer is for the OP’s friend to go down to the bank, deposit all the money at one go, fill out the CTR form & go home safe & happy. That form will disappear into the maw of the Fed’s computers & sit there ignored forever, just like the Ark of the Covenant at the end of _Raiders of the Lost Ark_. Also, 100% right, including the last part about the Ark- unless of course there’s some other reason they are already investigating her. CTRs do not trigger anything, they are not even looked at by a real live person. They are called up only when the Feds are looking at you for other financial crimes. A SAR, otoh, is always looked at by a Real Live Federal Agent, and can be bad news. Just ask Gov Spitzer. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/40 "2012-01-09T02:10:35Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Hello? How about different banks, savings & loans, credit unions? Surely there is more than one “financial institution” in your town? This become solid evidence of intent to structure funds. **Do Not Pass Go!** , etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760.md?page=3)