# Resolving a Mattress Fund? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760 "2012-01-07T20:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/61 "2012-01-10T20:07:03Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The point of avoiding reporting - the suggestion that the IRS might decide the cash represented untaxed earnings. From the earlier posts (and knowing that CRA in Canada operates in a similar manner) they could simply seize the money and it would be up to you to pay the attorney fees, and prove that it in fact did not represent untaxed income. (Maybe a year’s worth of private poker winnings or small casino jackpots). > > Only someone with real tax law experience can tell you how likely this scenario is, depending on the amounts. > > OTOH, if she put it into a safe deposit box, it is much less likely to be stolen or misplaced. If she simply used that instead of taking cash out of her account from time to time, her pension/social Security would legitimately pile up and within a few years perhaps she could replace cash-in-box with money-in-bank without doing anything to make the authorities misinterpret her assets; provided she took some money out of the bank too from time to time. > > Yes, hoarding money is a real concern; get it into a safe place ASAP. Read about many crimes in the 1800’s, and they revolve around “the thieves heard rumours he was a miser with a large amount of money hidden in his house.” Things probably have not changed that much. No, they could not. First, the IRS isn’t even going to know the funds exist, CTRs do not go to the IRS. They would ONLY see the CTR if they were auditing her for another issue. My Bro was a IRS agent for 20 years. He sez it is “unlikely to the point of being hit by a meteor.” (assuming of course that the Op’s friend isn’t a drug dealer, etc) In any case, a safe deposit box doesn’t earn income, and you can’t spend it. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/62 "2012-01-10T20:26:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In any case, a safe deposit box doesn’t earn income, and you can’t spend it. You can spend from a safe deposit box. Just not too much at one time. It may not earn anything, but that puts it ahead of most savings mutual funds the last few years. OK, Thanks. So if the risk of the money being seized is miniscule, then yes, deposit it all at once with reporting and get it out of there. Also (as someone mentioned) see if any bills are old or odd enough to be worth real money… Are we talking 60 years old, or 20? ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/63 "2012-01-16T22:44:56Z")
> [@BeaMyra](#): > > The problem as I see it, is simply the IRS may declare you owe and leave it to you to prove you don’t This is her main fear. Like someone else said, I doubt she has paystubs for the past x years. She figures that the IRS will swoop down on her like the seagulls from Finding Nemo (my allusion, not hers) as soon as the records are on file. I’ll try and tell her that the paperwork won’t go to the IRS unless she starts doing something suspicious, but am not sure that it will do much good. She’s old school, emigrated from South America a long, long time ago, and (obviously) distrusts financial institutions. I have tried to convince her that if it’s in the bank, it will at least be protected and insured. I tried explaining CDs to her. I mentioned home invasion possibility or her house burning down. The only thing that’s changed AFAIK is that _now_ she wants to bury the money in the backyard! _sigh_ Maybe I’ll try to convince her to get a safety deposit box. But aren’t there legal issues with having cash in them? Like it might be considered “taking cash out of circulation”? How would the bank know anyway? > [@DrDeth](#): > > (assuming of course that the Op’s friend isn’t a drug dealer, etc) I’m going to say a big NO to that one. 😃 She’s in her 70s and a strong Catholic: She’s pretty much anti-_everything_. Which seems odd, considering the amount of telenovelas she enjoys. > [@md2000](#): > > Also (as someone mentioned) see if any bills are old or odd enough to be worth real money… Are we talking 60 years old, or 20? I honestly have no idea. For all I know, she and her (now deceased) husband spent most of their money paying off their house and then started squirreling away a lot more after that. I figure the details are really none of my business… maybe the fact that she keeps all that cash around her house isn’t either. I just feel scared for her. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/64 "2012-01-16T23:04:10Z")
> [@Skott](#): > > This is her main fear. Like someone else said, I doubt she has paystubs for the past x years. She figures that the IRS will swoop down on her like the seagulls from Finding Nemo (my allusion, not hers) as soon as the records are on file. I’ll try and tell her that the paperwork won’t go to the IRS unless she starts doing something suspicious, but am not sure that it will do much good. She’s old school, emigrated from South America a long, long time ago, and (obviously) distrusts financial institutions. > > I have tried to convince her that if it’s in the bank, it will at least be protected and insured. I tried explaining CDs to her. I mentioned home invasion possibility or her house burning down. The only thing that’s changed AFAIK is that _now_ she wants to bury the money in the backyard! > > _sigh_ > > Maybe I’ll try to convince her to get a safety deposit box. But aren’t there legal issues with having cash in them? Like it might be considered “taking cash out of circulation”? How would the bank know anyway? > > I’m going to say a big NO to that one. 😃 She’s in her 70s and a strong Catholic: She’s pretty much anti-_everything_. Which seems odd, considering the amount of telenovelas she enjoys. > > I honestly have no idea. For all I know, she and her (now deceased) husband spent most of their money paying off their house and then started squirreling away a lot more after that. I figure the details are really none of my business… maybe the fact that she keeps all that cash around her house isn’t either. I just feel scared for her. Like I said, she is safe. But here’s a idea- she likely has a tax preparer, hopefully a Enrolled Agent or CPA? So when she goes to get her taxes done, she should ask his advice. ---
**Author:** ![jacobsta811](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jacobsta811/32/2893_2.png) [@jacobsta811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobsta811)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/65 "2012-01-17T14:00:16Z")
People get all crazy about CTRs for no good reason, because they don’t think about it very hard. The IRS isn’t some all knowing, all powerful agency with an unlimited number of agents. $10,000 is a vanishingly _small_ amount of money in today’s world - there have to be at a minimum hundreds of thousands (probably millions or tens of millions) of the things filed each year. There is no way the IRS would have the manpower to look into all of them. I mean, think about any cash business - there have to be plenty of businesses that generate a CTR every week or more. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/66 "2012-01-17T14:45:53Z")
If any you know stores their cash in their house, show them [this](http://www.nessllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Safe-From-Fire.jpg). > [@Shagnasty](#): > > safety deposit box > [@md2000](#): > > safety deposit box > [@Skott](#): > > safety deposit box “ **SAFE** deposit box!” Y’know, like that room with the big ass door in the back of the banks? Where they put deposits? Where there are boxes? There are no life vests, defibrillators, or helmets in there. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/67 "2012-01-17T14:50:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If the bank does it’s job right there should be no SAR. A CTR, yes, but not a SAR. This transaction does not meat SAR guidleines. Actually, SARs often get generated for little or no reason. Item 35s on the SAR form is for “OTHER” in regard to what makes it suspicious; financial institutions (not just banks) often file these and make reports to law enforcement agencies. And sometimes they produce valuable leads (or lead to a bunch of the LEOs sitting around laughing their asses off). The instructions on the [form](http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/f9022-47_sar-di.pdf) make it clear that reporting is based, as suggested by the title of the report, “suspicion.” If a bank thinks a $5 transaction is suspicious, they can report it. ---
**Author:** ![Lizzyerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Lizzyerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizzyerd)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/68 "2012-01-17T15:17:22Z")
((apologies if this was mentioned already, didn’t read it all)) Couldn’t she just go to the branch/bank manager? Tell him what she wants to do, why she wants to do it, and what her problems/concerns are? I would figure any manager of a bank would try to bend over backwards to get someone’s custom. Another thought maybe getting money orders? The don’t expire ever and there would be less to hold onto. Or even those cards that you can buy from places like walmart? ((Only problem I would see with that is that those cards do charge, three dollars to load and three each month to have the card so it’s not the best thought)). ---
**Author:** ![Lizzyerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Lizzyerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizzyerd)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/69 "2012-01-17T15:20:18Z")
Chessic: “If any you know stores their cash in their house, show them this.” Uhm? Fire proof box? (actually that’s not complete seeing as those things are only good to a certain degree of fire) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/70 "2012-01-17T16:30:32Z")
Many crimes from the 1800’s and earlier started with “rumor had it the old miser had a lot of money hidden in the house”. The story goes downhill from here, usually involving home invasion, torture to reveal any extra assets, then death. It still happens today, there are just fewer targets now that most people trust banks. A fireproof box just means they could be tortured for the key or combination. There is no law for keeping cash in safe deposit boxes; the former prime minister of Canada kept (legitimate, he insists) $70,000-plus from a brown paper bag payment in a safe deposit box in NYC. Conveniently, he (a) did not have to report it, (b) he took out the money and distributed it, to his kids in college etc., in less-that-$10,000 amounts it seems, © no charges. He even collected $1M+ from the Canadian government for claiming he was corrupt (before the money was revealed, of course). Then he only had to pay half the back taxes on it… What you have in the safe deposit box in the bank safe is nobody else’s business and they will not know about it. Don’t tell the bank manager you have a huge wad of cash. All that does is guarantee that he will fill out all necessary forms to cover his ass. If you seriously expect a bank manager to not report something and say “I didn’t think it was suspicious”; risk his career and legal trouble to skip filling in a government form? Why? All you’re doing is telling someone in the neighbourhood, who may have secretaries and tellers reading his forms, etc. that there is a house with a huge amount of money nearby, and that money may disappear into a bank if the crooks don’t act fast. The least said about it, the better. If she’s so worried, get 2 or 3 safe deposit boxes in different banks. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/71 "2012-01-17T18:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=Lizzyerd;14677255Another thought maybe getting money orders? The don’t expire ever and there would be less to hold onto.)).[/QUOTE] Buying MO or then depositing the MO could also lead to Structuring in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/72 "2012-01-17T18:24:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Buying MO or then depositing the MO could also lead to Structuring in the same way. To repeat - just put the money in a safety deposit box and make occasional withdrawals for expenses and pay bills. That’s not structuring. If it means the pension cheques slowly build up in the bank… well, eventually the box will be empty and the account will be full. Structuring generally means a series of transactions small enough to avoid reporting but the obvious intent is to turn a reportable wad of cash into unreported bank deposits (or car, house, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/73 "2012-01-17T18:35:21Z")
I was a bank teller. A pair of customers came in every few days and deposited $4,000 to $6,000 per visit into one joint account. Unfortunately for them, they came to my teller window each time just out of sheer happenstance. I looked at the account history to make sure I wasn’t imagining things and filled out the CTR as suspicious activity under $10k per transaction. I got a call later from someone thanking me for reporting it and telling me that it led to an arrest. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/74 "2012-01-17T19:24:18Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > To repeat - just put the money in a safety deposit box and make occasional withdrawals for expenses and pay bills. ). To repeat- just deposit the cash into a savings account, in one lump sum. ---
**Author:** ![jacobsta811](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jacobsta811/32/2893_2.png) [@jacobsta811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobsta811)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760/75 "2012-01-17T19:29:35Z")
Agree with Dr. Deth. Deposit it into a savings account in one lump sum, generating a single CTR. Not really at all suspicious in and of itself, unlike the people suggesting structuring. Go through the bills and hold back any silver certificates/extremely old ones to take to a coin shop though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolving-a-mattress-fund/608760.md?page=3)