# Respond to Rania Kashi's e-mail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614 "2003-02-17T13:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/1 "2003-02-17T13:19:23Z")
An Iraqi immigrant living in Britain sent a [moving e-mail](http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7218.asp) to Prime Minister Blair. Please debate her points. Some high lights. > [@](#): > > I am writing this email after a lot of deliberation about whether I have the right to use my strange and unique position (within our group) to argue the case FOR an invasion in Iraq… > > …My parents fled from Iraq some 23 years ago leaving everything and everyone behind when at that point 17 of our relatives had been “disappeared” or imprisoned for no reason whatsoever… > > We were lucky; we made it safely to Britain. My father was lucky - his brother was caught trying to escape and tortured. So here I am, 19 years later, never having set foot in the country of my parents. > > … And let me say, that I also agree the American government is indeed big and bad; I have no illusions about their true intentions behind an attack on Iraq. > > More than you or I, the Iraqis know the ignorant and truly atrocious attitude of the American government towards most of the world’s population. Iraqis felt the effect of this when America (and the rest of the West in fact) eagerly supported and supplied Saddam when he waged his war-of-attrition against Iran causing the death of 1 million Iraqis and Iranians and the disappearance of many more - there was no anti-war movement to help them. > > They felt the effect of this attitude when America and the West ignored, supplied even, Saddam’s use of biological weapons on the people of Halabja, killing 5000 people in one day, and causing the deformed births of babies in the area to this day… > > I want to ask those who support the anti - “war” movement (apart from pacifists - that is a totally different situation) their motives and reasoning behind such support. You may feel that America is trying to blind you from seeing the truth about their real reasons for an invasion. I must argue that in fact, you are still blind to the bigger truths in Iraq. I must ask you to consider the following questions: > > [List of atrocities committed by Saddam] > > …Whatever America’s real intentions behind an attack, the reality on the ground is that many Iraqis, inside and outside Iraq support invasive action, because they are the ones who have to live with the realities of continuing as things are while people in the West wring their hands over the rights and wrongs of dropping bombs on Iraq, when in fact the US & the UK have been continuously dropping bombs on Iraq for the past 12 years. > > Of course it would be ideal if an invasion could be undertaken, not by the Americans, but by, say, the Nelson Mandela International Peace Force. That’s not on offer. The Iraqi people cannot wait until such a force materialises; they have been forced to take what they’re given. That such a force does not exist - cannot exist - in today’s world is a failing of the very people who do not want America to invade Iraq, yet are willing to let thousands of Iraqis to die in order to gain the higher moral ground. Do not continue to punish the Iraqi people because you are “unhappy” with the amount of power the world is at fault for allowing America to wield. Do not use the Iraqi people as a pawn in your game for moral superiority - one loses that right when one allows a monster like Saddam to rule for 30 years without so much as protesting against his rule… > > If you want to make your disillusions heard then do speak out, put pressure on Blair, Bush & Co to keep to their promises of restoring democracy to Iraq. Make sure they do put back in financial aid what they have taken over the years, and make sure that they don’t betray the Iraqis again. March for democracy in Iraq. If you say that we can’t trust the Americans then make sure that you are a part of ensuring they do fulfil their promises to the Iraqis… > > In some ways I do admire the movement because it proves what people can achieve when they come together and speak out. Unfortunately for Iraq nobody spoke out earlier. > > Rania Kashi This e-mail makes total sense to me, even though I would be less critical of the US. Opposing views are invited. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/2 "2003-02-17T13:34:43Z")
Manipulative tripe. The criticism of America is the only thing she’s right about. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/3 "2003-02-17T13:46:57Z")
Of course the Iraqi people are the victims in this theatre but I would think it misleading to suggest that they are _in favour of invasion_, given that it would be their young men being buried alive in trenches and their women and children risking death in bomb shelters should another war break out (a continent away from Cambridge’s reasonable spires). If maltreatment of its own people justifies war against a regime, our armed forces and our taxes must be ready for a world tour encompassing _at least_ North Korea, Israel, Sudan, Burma and Zimbabwe, not to mention other Middle Eastern authoritarian states. If the reasons for this war are _consistent_, I will support it. I have yet to be convinced that Bush would have reignited this burner were it not for the elections next year. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/4 "2003-02-17T13:51:22Z")
Incidentally, she is not an Iraqi immigrant but a citizen as British as the Queen, since she was born here and has never even been to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/5 "2003-02-17T13:57:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*…If maltreatment of its own people justifies war against a regime, our armed forces and our taxes must be ready for a world tour encompassing _at least_ North Korea, Israel, Sudan, Burma and Zimbabwe, not to mention other Middle Eastern authoritarian states. > \*\* So our options are A) Do everything or B) Do nothing. There can be no middle ground, eh? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/6 "2003-02-17T14:01:28Z")
I call your Blair-spun Britisher and raise you one genuine Iraqi. Feel free to join in everybody, as if one opinion proves anything, except as a juvenile debating tactic. [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12646938&method=full&siteid=50143](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12646938&method=full&siteid=50143) Carol Naughton, chairwoman of CND - co-organisers with the Muslim Association of Britain - said: "When it went above a million it was amazing. "An Iraqi called me over and told me he’d escaped his homeland a few months ago after being tortured. "He hated Saddam with all his heart but had family and friends in Iraq and he didn’t want them bombed. He’d just spoken to them and they’d asked him to get someone to thank the crowd. “When I did, I felt so emotional my voice was breaking.” John Rees of Stop the War Coalition said: "Hundreds of thousands of people out there had never done anything remotely political in their lives. “Every single one of them has helped to make history. Now they must believe they can change its course.” ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/7 "2003-02-17T14:12:30Z")
On the contrary, **Brutus** , of course I advocate a practical approach to intervention. However, to suggest that this is a humanitarian effort similar to Kosovo (which I supported and which, IIRC, many right-wing Americans “none of our damn business”-ed) is distinctly disingenuous given that such concern has seemingly appeared out of the blue after 12 years of sanctions. Had the US prioritised _eg._ Sudan, Somalia or Yemen over Iraq I would have have admired their honourable intentions and certainly understood, given the crises in these countries and the _direct links_ to Al-Quaeda. (Incidentally, would you support intervention in Sudan after Iraq?). I argue that Iraq is _not_ the scene of the biggest humanitarian abuses in the world today, tragic though Iraq’s plight may be, and that the choice of Iraq for intervention smells extremely suspect. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/8 "2003-02-17T21:42:51Z")
Cynic: Saw her interviewed on MSNBC today. Quite a well spoken woman, but when asked specifics of why America was “bad” she just stumbled over something along the lines of “Everyone knows this… there are so many examples… you don’t need me to tell you this.” Now, just because she fumbled this doesn’t mean she’s wrong, but it irritates me to no end when people trash the US w/o even thinking thru what their reasons are. Her thesis that the Iraqi people don’t like us, but still want us to invade sure makes me want to jump in the line of fire to save their asses! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/9 "2003-02-17T22:00:01Z")
She doesn’t know anything about the Iraqi people. It’s just propoganda. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/10 "2003-02-17T22:20:56Z")
Cynic: You may think so, but the same thoughts came out in an article in yeseterday’s NYT (Perspectives section). “Real” Iraqi refugees were interviewed in Jordan. They had no great love for the US, but wanted to see us invade so that Saddam Hussein was overthrown. The interviews all sounded pretty much in line with Kashi. She may be an Iraqi poser, but there appear to be many Iraqis who agree with her. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/11 "2003-02-17T22:28:34Z")
Considering the number of exile-iraqees around the globe you could easily produce statements supporting that the general opinion of iraqees appear to be whatever you want it to be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/12 "2003-02-17T22:42:43Z")
Randy: So let me get this right: The NYT is trying to drum up support for an invasion of Iraq? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/13 "2003-02-17T22:59:07Z")
Well all i am saying is this: i don’t think the NYT article is a proof in either directions what the iraqi people think. In the biggest daily newspaper in my homecountry Sweden (Independent liberal - in editorial and news sections mostly supporting invasion) they ran interviews with iraqis in iraq. The major feeling expressed was that of fright of anticipated bombing. And then the counter-argument goes: “Iraq is run by Saddam Hussein who persecutes people with wrong opinions”. Well. Either way i wouldnt say that any interview with individuals can be made to represent the feelings of the iraqi people in general. Even if run by an ever-so respected newspaper. Isnt the NYT conservative, though? In the peace rally i attended Saturday, right next to me there were marching about 100 exile-iraqi kurds protesting the war, and demanding that Turkey should free PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan… So i think it is fair to say that exile-iraqis host a fair number of different views on an invasion. For specific numbers someone will have to do some polling. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/14 "2003-02-17T23:08:14Z")
No, the NYT is definitely not known as a conservative paper, and the Boston Globe isn’t either. But there’s a similar piece in there today: [http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/048/living/](http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/048/living/)_We\_know\_what\_war\_means_+.shtml > [@](#): > > In truth, Iraqi-Americans are divided on the question of war. ‘‘Liberation of Iraq must be done by Iraqis,’’ Ali says. ‘‘Exactly,’’ responds Al-Suwaij, executive director of the American Islamic Congress, an organization in Cambridge’s Kendall Square that promotes tolerance of American Muslims. ‘‘But Iraqis themselves cannot do it.’’ So, she says, she anxiously waits for the United States to go to war with Iraq. Cambridge itself is like the anti-war capital of the world; they don’t allow pro-US propaganda in there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/15 "2003-02-17T23:13:26Z")
Heh, well i admit i wouldnt really know about NYT. Of course it might be that democrats and republicans alike, would be characterized as conservatives in sweden. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/16 "2003-02-17T23:18:54Z")
Randy: NYT=Liberal, WSJ=Conservative. As much as I hate those labels, that works OK for shorthand. My response was really directed at Cynic who trashed Kashi as “not knowing anything about the Iraqi people”. BTW, the people interviewed by the NYT were not living comfortably in the West. They were refugees with the real possibility of being deported BACK to Iraq. Yes, there is certainly a plurality of opinon, but I’d listen to the poor folks in Jordan before I’d listen to some peacenick Swedish-Iraqi. (Just kidding about the peacenick part, sort of…) And also BTW, I am in no way pro-war myself. Although I believe the West would be morally justified in invading Iraq (The first Gulf War issues are still valid), I do not think it is in our overall interest to do so. And hearing anti-US rhetoric from people who want us to help liberate their country makes me sick to my stomache. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/17 "2003-02-17T23:19:57Z")
- Incidentally, she is not an Iraqi immigrant but a citizen as British as the Queen, since she was born here and has never even been to Iraq.\* ~ SentientMeat Yes, SentientMeat, she is indeed as British as the Queen. That is, incidentally, if the Queen had had 17 relatives in Iraq killed or otherwise become non-alive since her parents escaped to freedom from Iraq to England in 1979. _She doesn’t know anything about the Iraqi people. It’s just propoganda._ ~ Diogenes the Cynic I see. Interesting logical extension there, Diogenes. \_\_\_🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/18 "2003-02-17T23:42:06Z")
John: Well that only holds if you take those opinions viewed by the \*\*those poor folks[B/] in the refugee camps to stand for **all poor iraqis** in refugee camps. I hate to make the following point, because i’m not sure i wan’t to go there. But, i’m think there are a whole lot of people around the world that has sound reasons to use anti-US rethorics, even those who supports an US invasion (just as i believe there are a lot of people that has the US to thank for a lot, hell rock music for one thing). Still, it costs to be the world leader with all kind of interests all over the globe. Besides no state has asked the US to invade Iraq. Neither has any organsation representing exile-iraqis. As i perceive it, that agenda comes very much from within the US government. Well having said that, i hope i’m not picking any fights here! ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/19 "2003-02-17T23:43:36Z")
damn i cant seem to get those tags right ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614/20 "2003-02-18T00:17:48Z")
Randy: Well, as you said, everything in the US looks conservative when viewed from Sweden… Yeah, we could go 'round and 'round about who really speaks for the Iraqi people. Suffice it to say that we’ll probably never get a Gallop poll done inside Iraq. Therefore, we need to make our best judgement on the issue with the info we have. Again, I am NOT pro-war, but I head something earlier today that made me think. Suppose, someone said, those war protestors suddenly found themselves living in Iraq as Iraqi citizens. How many of them would then be calling for the US to liberate them? Just a thought experiment with no real answer, but I just think it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize leardership and action. And how about Chirac telling the Eastern European countries today that they better shut up about supporting the US if they want a chance to join the EU? Sounds like pure bullying tactics to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/respond-to-rania-kashis-e-mail/155614.md?page=2)