# Response: Is chiropractic for real or just quackery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 10, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742 "2014-07-10T03:49:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chirodrivencare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@chirodrivencare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chirodrivencare)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/1 "2014-07-10T03:49:39Z")
Hi Cecil: I would like to clear up some old wives tales about chiropractic that many people still believe to be true. Perhaps, after the clarification you will have a better understanding about the profession of chiropractic and the science behind what we do. When many people think of a chiropractic adjustment they think of an “abrupt push or pull on the back or neck,” yet that is not all of the case. A chiropractor can perform an adjustment using his/her hands or a small instrument, such as an activator. In both manual adjusting and instrument-assisted adjusting motion is put into a joint, but never past the anatomical barrier. An adjustment is performed at a joint that has a subluxation, otherwise known as a joint that has a decreased range of motion. The chiropractic definition of subluxation is not to be confused with the medical definition of subluxation, for they are two different definitions. Adjustments do not only occur in the spine, but at any of the hundreds of joints in the body, including joints in your hands and feet. History is filled with scientists that have since been proven wrong; well, even though many concepts that originated from the father of chiropractic, D.D. Palmer, still hold true, 119 years later, there are some concepts that have been proven wrong. Yet, unfortunately, these concepts gain the most public attention. Chiropractors look at the body as a whole and evaluate each individual before treatment. We perform the exam to rule out any condition that may be beyond chiropractic care because not every patient is suited for chiropractic care. Every treatment is individualized for the patient, for instance, if a chiropractor orders radiographs and reads the radiograph to conclude the patient has osteoporosis, their treatment will include modalities that avoid a heavy thrust of a manual adjustment. There is a lot of research stating the benefits to chiropractic care and the science that backs up chiropractic. Here are some for your enjoyment: Adjustments have been found to decrease nociceptive, or pain causing, input input to the spinal cord (Bartsch 2003). Measurable changes within a joint complex occur within one week of the start of lack of mobility of a joint (Lantz 1988). I encourage you to dabble in the plethora of other studies that will blow your mind! Thanks for taking the time to read my response, Karen _(ETA: Link To Column: [Is chiropractic for real or just quackery? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2771/is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery) – Rico)_ ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/2 "2014-07-10T09:22:44Z")
Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, Karen, glad to have you with us. For future reference, it’s helpful to other readers if you provide a link to the column on which you’re commenting. No problem, I edited your post to include that, and you’ll know for next time. Glad to have you on board. Rico For The SDMB ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/3 "2014-07-10T09:29:47Z")
I vote quackery. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/4 "2014-07-10T12:29:38Z")
Your definition of “subluxation” is different from the standard chiropractic one. If either of your references are available online, it would help to link to them so we can evaluate their worth. Welcome to the SDMB. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/5 "2014-07-10T12:51:18Z")
Why can’t it be both? FTR, I also believe a great deal of standard medicine is quackery as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/6 "2014-07-10T13:55:12Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Why can’t it be both? FTR, I also believe a great deal of standard medicine is quackery as well. 1. Nailing down definitions furthers understanding. 2. “They do it too!” doesn’t address the issue at hand-it is just a diversionary tactic. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/7 "2014-07-10T14:15:14Z")
Cecil answer is: > [@](#): > > It depends on who’s doing it and what kind of results you expect. My personal experience has been a very positive result from a person with a doctorate in both Physical Therapy and Chiropractic. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/8 "2014-07-10T14:45:25Z")
100% quackery and fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/9 "2014-07-10T15:00:44Z")
> [@chirodrivencare](#): > > An adjustment is performed at a joint that has a subluxation, otherwise known as a joint that has a decreased range of motion. The chiropractic definition of subluxation is not to be confused with the medical definition of subluxation, for they are two different definitions. A medical subluxation implies the presence of an incomplete or partial dislocation of a joint or organ. According to the wiki on Chiropractic Vertebral subluxation, > [@](#): > > In chiropractic, vertebral subluxation is a set of signs and symptoms of the spinal column. Those chiropractors who assert this concept also add a visceral component to the definition. Chiropractors maintain that a vertebral subluxation complex is a dysfunctional biomechanical spinal segment which is fixated. Chiropractors additionally assert that the dysfunction actively alters neurological function, which in turn, is believed to lead to neuromusculoskeletal and visceral disorders. Where did you get _your_ definition? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/10 "2014-07-10T15:18:17Z")
> [@chirodrivencare](#): > > Hi Cecil: > I would like to clear up some old wives tales about chiropractic that many people still believe to be true…An adjustment is performed at a joint that has a subluxation, otherwise known as a joint that has a decreased range of motion. The chiropractic definition of subluxation is not to be confused with the medical definition of subluxation, for they are two different definitions. Speaking of old wives’ tales… Subluxations in evidence-based medicine are real and can be seen on imaging studies. Chiropractic “subluxations” cannot be seen on imaging and have not been demonstrated to existl, which is why reform elements in chiropractic are trying (unsucessfully, so far) to eliminate this fantasy from the chiropractic curriculum. To quote chiropractor Sam Homola: _“An orthopedic subluxation, a true vertebral misalignment, or a mechanical joint dysfunction that affects mobility in the spine is not the same as a “chiropractic subluxation” that is alleged to cause disease by interfering with nerve supply to organs. Such a subluxation has never been proven to exist. There is no plausible theory and no credible evidence to support the contention that “nerve interference” originating in a single spinal segment can cause an organic disease.”_ > **[Chiropractic Vertebral Subluxations: Science vs. Pseudoscience](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-vertebral-subluxations-science-vs-pseudoscience/)** > > A 1997 publication by the Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research, supporting the vertebral subluxation theory, noted that “…we \[chiropractors\] have successfully distanced the concept o As chiro subluxations do not exist, “adjustments” cannot resolve them, but are just another form of laying on of hands that some people find beneficial (along with massage and forms of physical therapy). > [@](#): > > History is filled with scientists that have since been proven wrong… > Chiropractors look at the body as a whole and evaluate each individual before treatment. Two classics commonly expounded by proponents of woo. “Science was wrong before” does not excuse current chiropractic quackery. It is ironic that Karen approvingly cites the “father of chiropractic”, D.D. Palmer, whose nonsense is still believed by many chiros today. Evidence-based medicine recognizes errors and is constantly revising and improving care, while chiros cling to concepts that were ridiculous over 100 years ago. > [@](#): > > ``` > There is a lot of research stating the benefits to chiropractic care and the science that backs up chiropractic. > > ``` …the overwhelming majority of which are in chiro journals, involve minimal numbers of patients and [do not support](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/) the sweeping claims made for chiro treatments. \*"In over a century, chiropractic research has produced no evidence to support the postulates of chiropractic theory and little evidence that chiropractic treatments provide objective benefits. Research on spinal manipulation is inherently difficult, because double blind studies are impossible and even single blind studies are problematic; a placebo response is hard to rule out. There is good evidence that spinal manipulation therapy (SMT) is effective for some patients with low back pain but that it is not superior to other treatments. There is controversial evidence of lesser quality supporting the use of manipulation for neck pain and headaches. SMT is not exclusive to chiropractic: it is also used by physical therapists, doctors of osteopathy, and others. There is no acceptable evidence that chiropractic can improve the many other health problems it claims to benefit, from colic to asthma. There is no evidence to support the practice of adjusting the spines of newborns in the delivery room or providing repeated lifelong adjustments to maintain health or prevent disease."\* ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/11 "2014-07-13T17:19:09Z")
There is a benefit to having someone pay attention to you, listen to your problems, and sincerely wish for you to get well. There’s also a benefit to having someone place there hands on your body. It comforts and reassures the patient, makes them feel loved, gives them hope, and stimulates oxytocin. You can get the same benefit from a hug as you get from a chiropractor. Charging $150 for hugs and calling it medicine is quackery. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/12 "2014-07-14T20:51:07Z")
The fact is if chiropractic didn’t work insurance wouldn’t pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/13 "2014-07-14T21:05:11Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > The fact is if chiropractic didn’t work insurance wouldn’t pay for it. It is reality that insurance pays for it. That does not make it a fact that it works. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/14 "2014-07-14T21:06:36Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > The fact is if chiropractic didn’t work insurance wouldn’t pay for it. Nonsense. Insurance pays for all sorts of stupid stuff, especially if it replaces or puts off more expensive treatments. See also: acupuncture, B12 shots, “therapudic touch,” and homeopathic/naturalist treatments, all of which are often covered by insurance. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/15 "2014-07-15T00:02:52Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > There is a benefit to having someone pay attention to you, listen to your problems, and sincerely wish for you to get well. There’s also a benefit to having someone place there hands on your body. It comforts and reassures the patient, makes them feel loved, gives them hope, and stimulates oxytocin. > > You can get the same benefit from a hug as you get from a chiropractor. > > Charging $150 for hugs and calling it medicine is quackery. So if our chiro only charges $20, then he’s not a quack? ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/16 "2014-07-15T00:22:37Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > The fact is if chiropractic didn’t work insurance wouldn’t pay for it. Actually, that might be decided by state statute. People who vote go to chiropractic clinics and some legislators may also be chiropractic patients too. In fact, [this paper](http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/AHCPR/06.html) states that 45 states mandate insurance to cover chiropractic care. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/17 "2014-07-15T01:16:02Z")
The problem I have with chiropractics is the complete lack of evidence and the complete lack of blind studies to demonstrate any effectiveness. The basic theory of chiropractics is full of what is obviously non-scientific based ideas of disease and physiology. As mentioned in the Straight Dope article, chiropractics states that most disease is the result issues with _nerve flow_. That the body has _innate intelligence_ to heal itself, and this intelligence is transmitted by the nerves, and that this _nerve flow_ can be blocked by misaligned vertebra. Even many chiropractors don’t believe it. This is why there’s a big fight between the _straight_ (the true believers), and the _mixers_ who believe that other treatments are necessary to help chiropractics work. Even most [patients don’t believe in chiropractic theory](http://www.ottawahealthgroup.com/why-do-people-choose-chiropractic/). 60% of the visits to chiropractics are for skeletal muscle pain. Another 39% go for _maintenance_. Few go for diseases such as flu or cancer which chiropractic theory claims to also treat. (The article linked is very boastful of this fact, and crows about the \*evidence based medicine[/] report. However, the report doesn’t go into the effectiveness of the treatment, only why people are going). And, it’s not like chiropractics in benign. Many adjustments are actually quite dangerous. Neck manipulation is extremely dangerous and has been [linked to strokes](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-and-stroke/). I will admit that maybe there might be something to chiropractics, even if the theory is all wrong. However, the way to show this is with a good double blind study. And, the two treatments must be equal in value to the patient. One study that showed moderate effects of chiropractics involved one group of patients being treated by chiropractors while the other group filled out a survey. And, don’t give me that bogus _big medicine_ won’t do a study. Hospitals now have chiropractic units (they’ll do anything to make a buck). Chiropractics is a 14 billion dollar industry. It’s big medicine. That’s more than Norvartis’ income in 2012 (9.6 billion). Chiropractics is a big industry and could sponsor a few good studies to prove its effectiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/18 "2014-07-15T01:17:43Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > So if our chiro only charges $20, then he’s not a quack? No, just a lower class of quack. ---
**Author:** ![wissdok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c4cdca/32.png) [@wissdok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wissdok)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/19 "2014-07-15T04:02:41Z")
Going down the row… Quoting anything from [sciencebasedmedicine.org](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org) is not stating any facts, but just opinions of Steven Novella and David Gorski. They may be doctors but so are 800,000 others that don’t share their opinions. While not chiropractic yet, the Integrative Medicine at Yale University, where Dr. Novella is a professor, teaches Acupuncture. I might be wrong but I believe Novella once said if acupuncture worked then studies would be published. When confronted with the fact that 1000s are published in China annually, he replied that they aren’t good studies because they prove Acupuncture works. Circular logic, I would say. As to insurance companies paying chiropractors, yes maybe you can claim that doesn’t prove anything…but what about state college sports programs, government run hospitals, and the VA system? Why do we accept Chiropractor services with tax payer money…could it be they have proven their worth with the consumer? The NBA, NFL, and the MLB also use them, are you assuming that jocks are so stupid they can simply be talked out of their pain? Lastly, mentioning an Australia study of 99 patients is questionable. While I have never been to a chiropractor myself, I know many that have…including doctors. I might not make a chiropractor my first choice for the everyday flu, from what I have heard from other people, they would be my first choice for any back problems. I might check with an African Witchdoctor before I went to MD, as I have never heard a good result from someone coming back from a doctor’s visit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742/20 "2014-07-15T11:27:24Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > The fact is if chiropractic didn’t work insurance wouldn’t pay for it. Nonsense. People whined hard enough to make it happen. As mentioned, chiropractors got lawmakers to write laws forcing coverage. > [@wissdok](#): > > As to insurance companies paying chiropractors, yes maybe you can claim that doesn’t prove anything…but what about state college sports programs, government run hospitals, and the VA system? Why do we accept Chiropractor services with tax payer money…could it be they have proven their worth with the consumer? The NBA, NFL, and the MLB also use them, are you assuming that jocks are so stupid they can simply be talked out of their pain? One doesn’t have to be stupid to fall for the placebo effect. There is some benefit to spinal adjustment in easing back pain. It is similar in function to stretching and exercising and massage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/response-is-chiropractic-for-real-or-just-quackery/692742.md?page=2)