# Restroom doors **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 11, 2021, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791 "2021-04-11T11:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/101 "2021-04-25T21:29:51Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Really? What is the state’s demonstrable interest in that scenario? I’m probably speaking a foreign language here, but a concept known as “public health and sanitation” applies." > [@](#): > > Has any U.S. court ever ruled that “avoiding people pissing on the floor” is a rationally demonstrable interest of the state? Has any US court ruled that it isn’t? Because that’s the operating principle here. The legislature doesn’t need the court’s permission to pass laws. The court wouldn’t get involved unless someone were dumb enough to file suit complaining that the state has no interest in public health, which AFAIK hasn’t happened. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/102 "2021-04-26T01:42:22Z")
How would a rule requiring strict gender separation of restrooms (and hence, strict door labeling requirements) prevent at least some users of restrooms from pissing on the floor? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/103 "2021-04-26T01:50:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But I had never noticed that the circle always went with female and the triangle always went with male. It just never occurred to me. D’oh! Some posts somewhere above mentioned that a square might also be a symbol for the male place. I guess the sex-stereotyped notion is that circles, being rounded, are “feminine”, while either squares or triangles, being angular, are “masculine”. Anyone here ever done square dancing? Square dancing instructions quite regularly depict males with squares and females with circles. Other forms of dancing (e.g., contra) may do likewise, e.g., [![](https://www.ceder.net/oldcalls/callerlab/circulate_01.png) ](https://www.ceder.net/oldcalls/callerlab/circulate_01.png) (Although, sooprize sooprize, in googling for an image to post here, I came up with another one that uses exactly the opposite.) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/104 "2021-04-26T03:22:51Z")
And I have been to square and contra dances where it was “armbands/no armbands”. (I haven’t seen the drawings; but we were probably being more casual about it in general.) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/105 "2021-04-26T05:19:34Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > “public health and sanitation” Public health and sanitation, yes. Whether the sign says “Men”, “Cowboys”, or “Vaqueros”, is probably not a compelling state interest. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/106 "2021-04-26T10:35:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Public health and sanitation, yes. Whether the sign says “Men”, “Cowboys”, or “Vaqueros”, is probably not a compelling state interest. As you pointed out, the test is not “compelling state interest”, it is “rationally demonstrable state interest.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/107 "2021-04-26T12:02:06Z")
Yeah, but so long as the place has restrooms, and they work, why does the state care at all if they have silly signs on the door? I routinely need to ask where the restrooms are, it’s not as if there are standards for restroom visibility. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/108 "2021-04-26T12:04:29Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Public health and sanitation, yes. Whether the sign says “Men”, “Cowboys”, or “Vaqueros”, is probably not a compelling state interest. Avoiding “I goofed” cover for Peeping Tom’s may well be rational interest _enough_. It’s also not like legislatures pre-clear all their work with SCOTUS under a strict scrutiny standard before enacting it. If they did we would not have our country filled with prohibitions against saggy pants, or against buying booze on Sundays but not on Mondays. We standardize within pretty tight limits the appearance of highway signs and traffic signals. We standardize the size and shape of the nutritional information box on Froot Loops™, despite them lacking anything resembling actual nutrition. Etc., etc., Surely we can find it within the broad regulatory reach of the Feds or any state to standardize the size, shape, and location of gender-specific (or anything goes) signage at restrooms. Many people can probably agree with you @D_Anconia that the government has better things to do with its time and our money. But insisting that somehow it’s far beyond some legal / constitutional pale simply shows you’re living in some alternate fantasy world where some flavor of rightist libertarianism is the only political philosophy in the US. Hint: it isn’t. Nor should it be. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/109 "2021-04-26T12:05:21Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > (Although, sooprize sooprize, in googling for an image to post here, I came up with another one that uses exactly the opposite.) See also > **[Standards](https://xkcd.com/927/)** > > Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/110 "2021-04-26T12:21:10Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Many people can probably agree with you @D_Anconia that the government has better things to do with its time and our money. Ah, yes, that was really my position, disagreeing with whoever said upthread that those signs ought to be legislated. Not only do i agree that us governments could regulate the signs, I’m pretty sure I’ve even read a rant somewhere (probably here) about some restaurant having to pay a lot to remake its restroom signs to comply with some ridiculously strict rule. Size and color of font were specified, iirc. And people brought up the silly signs in that thread, too. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/111 "2021-04-26T12:56:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah, but so long as the place has restrooms, and they work, why does the state care at all if they have silly signs on the door? I routinely need to ask where the restrooms are, it’s not as if there are standards for restroom visibility. The state has established standards of accessibility signage under [the Americans with Disabilities act](https://www.access-board.gov/adaag-1991-2002.html#4.30) to include restroom signs: > [@](#): > > (1) Facilities and elements required to be identified as accessible by [4.1](https://www.access-board.gov/adaag-1991-2002.html#4.1) shall use the international symbol of accessibility. The symbol shall be displayed as shown in Fig. 43(a) and (b). Regarding this subtopic here, obviously the ADA itself would not apply to the plain labeling of restroom genders. But if the state has demonstrated an interest in mandating clear signage to help the disabled more easily use the facility, that rationale should easily transfer to assist anyone who can’t decipher ‘buoys and gulls’ or ‘_caballeros y vacas_’, whether because they’re not great with English, or with literacy in general, or just can’t puzzle out stupid puns. None of that should impede someone from going potty. The state regulates OSHA safety signage, trains, highways, all sorts of signage to help society function more smoothly. There’s ample precedent. Going to the bathroom is sometimes an emergency… if the state can mandate standards for emergency exit signs (which it does), then it can justifiably mandate clearer toilet signage. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/112 "2021-04-26T13:26:35Z")
I had started to post something right after @puzzlegal that substantially matched @HMS_Irruncible just above. The I got called away for an hour and he snuck in. But he did a much better job than I would have, with real cites and everything. Bravo Good Sir! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/113 "2021-04-26T13:27:37Z")
Thanks to you for some of the ideas. Edited to add: I’ll clarify that I don’t care if restaurants put stupid pictures or signs on their doors. That’s protected expression. But it should not be the _sole_ indication of that room’s purpose, which should be unambiguously designated by standard signage. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/114 "2021-04-26T13:37:33Z")
Presumably standard signs that comply with ADA and other requirements are easily available at office supply stores, big-box hardware stores and restaurant supply stores. It would probably be cheaper to buy them than to design and make cute custom signs that are ambiguous so there’s no reason the signs need to be confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/115 "2021-04-26T13:45:02Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > The Irish bar in our neighborhood has signs which read “Mná” and “Fir” (Irish for “Women” and “Men,” There was a bar in Ireland in one of the Matt Scudder novels that had that signage, but both doors led into the same farm field. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/116 "2021-04-26T15:53:38Z")
This thread certainly went down the shitter. Which one, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/117 "2021-04-26T16:22:48Z")
@Gatopescado: And now, gasping and gagging, it’s coming back up for air. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > There was a bar in Ireland in one of the Matt Scudder novels that had that signage, but both doors led into the same farm field. Excellent! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/118 "2021-04-26T19:20:09Z")
That was my mistake. I shouldn’t have used the word compelling. I still don’t agree that there’s a “rationally demonstrable state interest” to regulate"buoys and gulls" on restroom signage. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/119 "2021-04-26T19:25:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > still don’t agree that there’s a “rationally demonstrable state interest” to regulate"buoys and gulls" on restroom signage. The feds think there is a rationally demonstrable state interest in regulating restroom signage. The ADA. Put whatever cute, clever, catchy, capitalistically themed signage you want, as long as ADA compliant universal signage is also there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791/120 "2021-04-26T19:39:23Z")
Poor English and inability to puzzle out stupid puns are certainly not covered by the ADA. Even illiteracy is only covered in cases of a learning disability, or another physical or mental impairment. Social, cultural, and/or economic disadvantages that lead to illiteracy are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/restroom-doors/939791.md?page=7)