# "Retarded" as an Insult **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959 "2009-06-16T16:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/81 "2009-06-17T20:34:24Z")
Is it an insult to say that a man _dresses_ like a girl, or that an article of clothing looks feminine? Gender differences in styles of dress are totally cultural an socialized too. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/82 "2009-06-17T20:36:43Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yeah, but wouldn’t “You’re retarded” equal “I can’t believe that you are willfully this stupid–there must be some explanation for it in terms of diminished cognitive capacity”? > > That’s still the closest thing I’ve seen to a real answer to my question, though, thanks. When I was in junior high several centuries ago there was one kid who probably qualified as being retarded. He was the one kid in school no one ever, ever called retarded. I always heard it used as meaning extreme stupidity as trait of the person, distinguished from the act of doing something stupid. The actual intelligence of the person being insulted had nothing to do with it. Calling an actual retarded or whatever person retarded is far beyond the dickishness level of anyone I ever knew. However, I suspect it causes pain for the loved ones of people who are, even when not directed to them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/83 "2009-06-17T20:48:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yes, but traditionally that happened _because women were thought to be naturally no good at physical activities like sports_. It all cycles back to the mistaken belief that the skill involved is intrinsic to boys but not to girls. If you want to go that far back, I’d say it happened because men are physically stronger than women, and that the purpose of teaching sports to children was to prepare them for their roles as adults, including tasks that required greater strength, such as hunting and warfare. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/84 "2009-06-17T21:19:03Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You’re the one oversimplifying matters–you’re trying to shoehorn in the fact that adult men are, on average, stronger than adult women, which clearly has no bearing on a discussion of throwing \*technique \*in pre-pubescent _children_. Straw-Man. You are trying to limit the notion of ‘throwing like a girl’ to pre-pubescent children, which is an arbitrary limit that you are setting in order for it to sound more shocking. I’ve heard adult men tell other adult men they throw like a girl when they mess up a throw, whether or not the victim of the egregious insult would throw like a girl normally or not. But… the real issue here is, you’re retarded and you throw like a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/85 "2009-06-17T21:19:50Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So sexism is okay when it comes from kids? :rolleyes: Sexist kids grow up to be sexist adults, like racist kids grow up to be racist adults. > > Okay, how about the next time I see someone eating watermelon, I tell them to stop being such a nigger? Do you get my point now? Only if you threaten them with a taser. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/86 "2009-06-17T21:35:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Is it an insult to say that a man _dresses_ like a girl, or that an article of clothing looks feminine? > > Gender differences in styles of dress are totally cultural an socialized too. Hrm, interesting example. I guess the difference is that we’ve (theoretically) broken sports away from gender restrictions or expectations, while clothing is still often gender-specific. That being said, yeah, it would be an insult to say a man “dresses like a girl,” because it implies that there’s something wrong with a person choosing clothes that aren’t stereotyped with their gender. Whether or not calling an article of clothing feminine is an insult would depend on the context, I guess. > [@mswas](#): > > Straw-Man. You are trying to limit the notion of ‘throwing like a girl’ to pre-pubescent children, which is an arbitrary limit that you are setting in order for it to sound more shocking. > > I’ve heard adult men tell other adult men they throw like a girl when they mess up a throw, whether or not the victim of the egregious insult would throw like a girl normally or not. “Girl” is pre-pubescent female human being. So, yes, that does narrow it down. Note that your example is entirely about _technique_, too. > [@](#): > > But… the real issue here is, you’re retarded and you throw like a girl. And you have Ann Coulter’s Adam’s apple. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/87 "2009-06-17T22:42:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Is it an insult to say that a man _dresses_ like a girl, or that an article of clothing looks feminine? Isn’t it, though, if that’s what the speaker intends? If a man gets teased for wearing a pink shirt, told that pink’s a ‘woman’s color’? There’s nothing inherently feminine about pink, but it’s pretty much been encoded as feminine in North America. So if someone insults a guy for wearing pink, they’re telling him that not only is he acting like a girl, but they likely don’t even have to explain why a male wouldn’t want to do that or create any confusion in the first place. I can’t think of a female equivalent in this case. Really short hair, I guess? But even then, I think the message is different. If a guy is wearing a pink shirt (and I know this isn’t the case in all areas – I know plenty of butch dudes who wear pink Lacoste, but they’re in major cities) he’s tagged as feminine/gay/weak. If a woman is tagged as masculine, the message seems to be that she’ll never be able to attract anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/88 "2009-06-18T00:06:30Z")
I think a lot of these hangups are pointless as these insults have, in effect, transcended their source for most people. I know gay people about as open about it as you can get that use gay as an insult, it has two (well, okay, three, but who uses the first one anymore?) meanings that are wholly seperate: the one that effectively means “lame” and the one that means homosexual, other than one stemming from the other at some ambiguous point in time, they’re completely different in context, function, and whatelse. “Retarded” as well, it’s a separate word from the actual medical context. While it is more closely linked (to the point where you wouldn’t use the “stupid” meaning on someone who actually IS retarded), you have to almost be trying to pick the stupid definition out and get worked up over it. It’s entirely likely the person you’re talking to wasn’t even thinking about the actual disability meaning, and very likely doesn’t really even have a problem with legitimately retarded people. And “throw like a girl,” I can’t speak for others, but when I was a kid it was a universal insult indiscriminate of gender, GIRLS used this to insult GIRLS who couldn’t throw. Again, it stems from a somewhat sexist perception, but it’s entirely an idiom now. Expecting someone who uses this to actually think they’re insulting women is like assuming everyone deeply contemplates the original source and meaning of “never look a gift horse in the mouth,” people use idioms with little regard to their origins all the time. That’s just my perception though, I just feel they’ve transcended their meanings to the point that it’s useless to get worked up because nobody really thinks about their origins (and, thus, no offense is intended) so they can be counted as simply different definitions of the same word. Contrast this with things like, say, “Jew” as a pejorative which isn’t really used by anyone that doesn’t actually have a problem with Jews since their meanings haven’t been distilled from one another. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/89 "2009-06-18T15:17:04Z")
This idea that boys’ throwing ability is the result of training is dubious to me. At least anecdotally, in terms of the children (my own and others) that I’ve watched develop from infancy, for most boys there is an innate ability to throw at least reasonably well that is less common to see in girls. The ability to throw is certainly refined through training and practice over time, and I’m sure that this training and practice occurs more frequently for boys through gender-stereotypic activities and expectations, but I do believe that there are, on average, innate differences by gender in the ability to throw which are completely independent of training. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/90 "2009-06-18T15:43:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This idea that boys’ throwing ability is the result of training is dubious to me. At least anecdotally, in terms of the children (my own and others) that I’ve watched develop from infancy, for most boys there is an innate ability to throw at least reasonably well that is less common to see in girls. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > At least anecdotally, in terms of the children (my own and others) that I’ve watched develop from infancy, for most boys there is an innate ability to throw at least reasonably well that is less common to see in girls. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > At least anecdotally, in terms of the children (my own and others) that I’ve watched develop from infancy > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > At least anecdotally See what I did there? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/91 "2009-06-18T15:50:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > See what I did there? Yes, and you appear to think it was clever. Of course my observations are anecdotal. Have you offered, or are you going to offer, some empirical evidence regarding gender differences in throwing ability? See what I did there? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/92 "2009-06-18T16:11:30Z")
Even the people at the highly-respected [Kidz World](http://www.kidzworld.com/article/371-the-girl-throw-throwing-like-a-girl) are ahead of the game. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is the phrase “throwing like a girl” is really outdated - because many guys and girls throw really well, and many don’t. > > So the next time you see someone on the field (guy or girl) with one of those strange throwing motions, don’t say, “you throw like a girl”. Instead say, “you suck, you’re a loser, you can’t throw at all, you should be embarrassed to even be on the field. Go play for the Cubs.” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/93 "2009-06-18T16:29:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > See what I did there? Yeah, you did the argument equivalent of “I know you are but what am I.” Would you like a golf clap? Genetically, people are hugely more similar than they are dissimilar, so the baseline assumption is always going to be that people are equivalent. If you think otherwise, the burden is on \*you \*to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/94 "2009-06-18T16:39:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yeah, you did the argument equivalent of “I know you are but what am I.” Would you like a golf clap? > > Genetically, people are hugely more similar than they are dissimilar, so the baseline assumption is always going to be that people are equivalent. If you think otherwise, the burden is on \*you \*to prove it. I have 2 questions. 1. Are you trying to say that women are naturally, on average, as physically capable (with regards to athletics and such) as men? 2. Has anyone ever hijacked their own thread so badly? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/95 "2009-06-18T16:44:02Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Yeah, you did the argument equivalent of “I know you are but what am I.” Would you like a golf clap? > > Genetically, people are hugely more similar than they are dissimilar, so the baseline assumption is always going to be that people are equivalent. If you think otherwise, the burden is on \*you \*to prove it. Uh, what are you, cognitively challenged? Genetically, boys and girls start out demonstrably different. XX vs. XY. So the assumption of equivalence, were one delayed enough to make it, would fail pretty much at step one. (Also, at birth, and this may be news to you, it is typical for girls to have a hoo ha, and boys to have a doodle, so there’s another strike against some sort of universal presumption of equivalence across genders.) Perhaps you have a measured or presumed score of 70 or below on a standard measure of IQ, but the burden of supporting any assertion is upon the person making it. So, when you assert that differences observed in throwing ability result from environmental factors (or specifically training) that is an assertion that also requires support. However, I’ll go ahead and provide the empirical support for my position that you cannot for yours. > **[APA PsycNet](https://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1986-00868-001)** From Thomas, J. R. & French, K. E. (1985). Gender differences across age in motor performance: A meta-analysis. Psychological Bulletin, 98, 260-282. Abstract: Conducted a meta-analysis of 64 studies that reported gender differences on motor performance during childhood and adolescence. Findings yielded 702 effect sizes based on data from 15,518 female and 15,926 male 3-20 yr olds. Age was regressed on effect size, and the relation was significant for 12 of 20 tasks (e.g., balance, catching, grip strength, shuttle run, throw velocity, tapping). Several types of age-related curves were found; the curve for a throwing task was the most distinctive. Five of the tasks followed a typical curve of gender differences across age. For 8 tasks, gender differences were not related to age, and effect sizes were small. Results are discussed in relation to the development of gender differences to biological and environmental sources. A bibliography of the 64 studies is appended. (47 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2008 APA, all rights reserved) From the discussion: > [@](#): > > Throwing is different. Even a casual glance at Figure 1 indicates that throwing for velocity and distance are different from the other 10 tasks. The differences are 1.5 standard deviation units at 3 years of age. These differences increase substantially during the elementary school years. […] Although Maccoby and Jacklin (1974) discussed some differences in the treatment of boys and girls in early childhood, differences as large as 1.5 standard deviation units at age 3 are unlikely to be completely environmentally caused. You see what I did there? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/96 "2009-06-18T16:46:53Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > 1. Are you trying to say that women are naturally, on average, as physically capable (with regards to athletics and such) as men? Read the rest of the fucking thread. This part of the discussion is about girls. Girls, girls, girls. Not women versus men, but the capabilities of girls. I readily concede (and have agreed in this very thread, if you took the two fucking seconds to read it) that men have the capacity to develop more muscle mass more easily than women, as well as having other structural differences that lead them to perform better in sports where these things are a factor. > [@](#): > > 1. Has anyone ever hijacked their own thread so badly? I think you mean _so well_. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/97 "2009-06-18T16:56:09Z")
You JUST SAID that the baseline assumption is that people are equivalent you retarded dildo. And no, your hijack is not going well. You look like a stupid asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/98 "2009-06-18T16:57:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You see what I did there? 1.) “\*Unlikely \*to be \*completely \*environmentally caused” (emphasis added). Meaning there’s probably some environmental effect, especially as children age. 2.) You’re still talking about “throwing for velocity and distance,” which isn’t “throwing like a girl.” Girls cease to “throw like girls” once they’ve been taught how to do it with the proper form. Kudos on coming up with a couple of different ways of saying “retarded,” though. I laughed. Oh, and as for your little genetics lesson? Obviously, the demonstrably different things are… different. (I know, this is a hard concept to grasp, different things being different, sheesh.) The challenge is to \*actually demonstrate \*what’s different, instead of just making claims. So, different genitals? Demonstrable. “Throwing like a girl” caused by being a girl? [Demonstrably not](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_baseball). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/99 "2009-06-18T17:01:27Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You JUST SAID that the baseline assumption is that people are equivalent you retarded dildo. Yes, we start from the assumption that people are the same, and _then look for what’s different_, because a lot of our genetic code is the same. That’s not the same as saying that men and women are identical–just that we have to prove the differences instead of prove the similarities. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959/100 "2009-06-18T17:15:56Z")
I quote from a meta-analysis of 64 studies that reveals a huge effect size for the differences between boys and girls that is evident as early as age 3. **Shot From Guns** links to a wikipedia page about girls’ baseball. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retarded-as-an-insult/499959.md?page=6)