# Rethinking LBJ...Was He That Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429 "2010-02-18T02:49:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/81 "2010-02-20T17:31:06Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was under the Reagan administration, yes, but it was due to the welfare programs of Johnson. Plus what of lower class (but not poor as in below the poverty line) black families? > [@Perciful](#): > > Conservative economist Thomas Sowell argues that the Great Society programs only contributed to the destruction of African American families, saying “the black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and discrimination, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state that subsidized unwed pregnancy and changed welfare from an emergency rescue to a way of life.” Professor William L. Anderson also criticized the War on Poverty, noting the increase of dependency on the government as being harmful to the lower classes. > [@ralph124c](#): > > This disaster is estimated to have consumed some $3,000,000,000,000! > If the money had simply been given to every person adjudged “poor” in 1964, every one of these people would be a millionaire. > And now, we are stuck with all of these Federal agencies and programs, still costing us huge amounts of money. > The povery industry has been VERY good for a lot of people-one wonders how this country would be, had LBJ never come up with this boondoggle. So your response is that whatever economic strides the poor have made since 1964, they would have been better off without Johnson’s programs, but that Johnson’s programs destroyed black families. I’d be interested in seeing some numbers from the conservative Heritage Foundation or the libertarian Cato Institute – organizations which at least strive to put some REAL analysis behind their claims that might indicate the poor would have been better off without Johnson’s programs. As for Sowell’s arguments that the poverty programs destroyed black family structure, [it deserves to be looked at more closely.](http://www.census.gov/apsd/www/statbrief/sb93_2.pdf) Percent of black families with female head, no husband. 1950 – 18% 1960 – 22% 1970 – 28% 1991 – 46% In other words it’s increased by about 2 1/2 times. Since 1960 the percentage of [white children living with their mothers only](http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam.html)has risen from 6% to 21%. In other words, it’s increased by 3 1/2 times. So the data don’t support that the Great Society programs disproportionately destroyed black families (a trend that had begun earlier) – and can even be read to support the argument that they had LESS impact on blacks than on whites. Again, I’d like to hear from someone with better access to data and no axe to grind. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/82 "2010-02-21T05:41:22Z")
These three video’s show LBJ for who he really was. There is some great history and video from the archives on the Kennedy assasination. The motorcade footage is very interesting. [Was It Johnson?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fATmzROAs5E&feature=related) ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/83 "2010-02-21T17:58:45Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > These three video’s show LBJ for who he really was. There is some great history and video from the archives on the Kennedy assasination. The motorcade footage is very interesting. > > [Was It Johnson?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fATmzROAs5E&feature=related) That’s some dandy character assassination they engage in, there. Lots of innuendo and accusation, but zero evidence. \Well, Your Honor. We’ve plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence. \ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/84 "2010-02-21T18:48:07Z")
The real after tax income of Americans rose by 30% during the Kennedy/Johnson years. That duing an expensive war. And declining to run again for the presidency given his reservations about the war puts Johnson near the top of American presidents. He put country before himself. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/85 "2010-02-21T19:02:41Z")
[quote=“kunilou, post:81, topic:529429”] \*\*So your response is that whatever economic strides the poor have made since 1964, they would have been better off without Johnson’s programs, Not at all. The “Great Society” programs put in place programs that hobble us to this day. Had we had real economic growth (free investment and innovation), instead of the dead hand of government, we would NOT have today: -enormous urban slums (public housing projects) -uninhabitable inner cities (the crime in the inner cities inhibits business and drives people away) -welfare programs that discourage marriage and promote out of wedlock births What do you think about such disasters as the Cabrini-green project? A high rise housing complex, it was torn down after the inhabitants made it uninhabitable. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/86 "2010-02-21T22:15:16Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > That’s some dandy character assassination they engage in, there. Lots of innuendo and accusation, but zero evidence. \Well, Your Honor. We’ve plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence. \ Did you see the motorcade scene? That was not evidence? That was about as close as you get to seeing Kennedy was set up by his own people. Did you see the bodyguard called off Kennedy? How he threw his hands up in the air? I am not saying it was LBJ but it was planned and they found Wallaces prints in the room of the building he was shot from. I never knew that Kennedy was about to expose LBJ paying bribes. I’m sure there is a lot we are not privy to. A lot of the video is all historic footage I had never seen before. That evidence was real. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/87 "2010-02-21T22:21:31Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What do you think about such disasters as the Cabrini-green project? A high rise housing complex, it was torn down after the inhabitants made it uninhabitable. Cabrini Green was built in phases starting in 1942 and ending in 1962. Pruitt-Igoe (an even more notorious example of public housing) was built in 1954-55. In other words, before Johnson and Department of Housing and Urban Development. Find another strawman. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/88 "2010-02-21T23:00:21Z")
Im inclined to be sympathetic to LBJ, on the basis that - he did better pushing through Civil Rights than other possible presidents would have - although Vietnam was a disaster, many other possible presidents would have screwed up badly as well. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/89 "2010-02-22T02:45:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > This disaster is estimated to have consumed some $3,000,000,000,000! > If the money had simply been given to every person adjudged “poor” in 1964, every one of these people would be a millionaire. Giving away $3,000,000,000,000 would allow you to make 3 million people millionaires. Was there only 3 million people living below the poverty line in 1964? Probably more like 20 million. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/90 "2010-02-22T03:59:12Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > How much responsibility did he have for the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965? While well intended, the unintended consequence is that California is sliding into bankruptcy. Also, it has actually hurt african americans when LBJ had hoped to help them with other programmes. No, California is sliding into bankruptcy because we only tax new homeowners at superhigh rates and then pay public servants large six figure incomes for jobs that could employ two people at half the wages. See corrections officers. Then to top it all off, we have to have two-thirds of the legislature vote to pass a budget, which leads to more pork. All other taxes are regressive and property taxes decrease over time due to the inflation in the cost of homes. It is possible for someone who lives in a $2 million home to pay less property taxes than someone living in a $300,000 home by virtue of having lived there a long time. So the taxes fall most heavily on newer families. It is highly regressive. Oh, and everybody buys from Amazon to avoid the exorbitant sales tax. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/91 "2010-02-22T04:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Chen019 > Also, it has actually hurt african americans when LBJ had hoped to help them with other programmes. > > How? By increasing competition and lowering wages in the job markets they’re overrepresented in. They’ve had employment opportunities reduced as a result. > [@](#): > > MARTIN: Mm-hmm. > > Prof. SWAIN: …because I have no problem with America being a nation of immigrants and immigration thats orderly and done legally. But there are some programs like the H2B Program, a visa program, brings in low-skilled labor from foreign countries to work in hotels and occupations where African-Americans and low-skilled other Americans that include whites and legal immigrants, legal Hispanics, have worked and that is a problem. > > And if you look at how those programs operate, its like indentured servitude. Its another form of slavery. What we dont need in America is competition in areas where you have qualified Americans that are unemployed. > > And so, Im not against legal immigration. I think we are all for legal immigration, but we have a broken system that floods the market in areas where we have Americans that are unemployed. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123811962) > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Chen019 > How much responsibility did he have for the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965? While well intended, the unintended consequence is that California is sliding into bankruptcy. > > 1. Care to make an argument, as to that cause-effect relationship? The cause is low skilled immigration and subsequent lack of educational achievement or integration. > [@](#): > > The consequences of a large ethno-cultural group’s lagging behind the majority in education and income are significant. In strictly economic terms, perpetually poor immigrants and their descendants will be a major strain on social spending and infrastructure. Health care, public education, welfare payments, the criminal justice system, and programs for affordable housing will all require more tax dollars. When pro-immigration conservatives declare that these government programs should be scaled back or eliminated entirely, I am sympathetic. But a large public sector is a reality that cannot be wished away — we will not be abolishing Medicaid or public schools anytime soon. Immigration policy needs to take that reality into account. > > Even if economics were not a concern, the lack of Hispanic assimilation is likely to create ethnic tensions that threaten our cultural core. Human beings are a tribal species, and this makes ethnicity a natural fault line in any society. Intra-European ethnic divisions have been largely overcome through economic assimilation — Irish and Italian immigrants may have looked a bit different from natives, but by the third generation their socioeconomic profiles were similar. Hispanic Americans do not have that benefit. [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) This is greatly exacerbated by the accompanying illegal immigration set out in this article. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the most disingenuous myth about illegal immigrants is that they do not impose any cost on society. The reality is that even those who work and half do not, according to the Pew Hispanic Center cannot subsist on the wages they receive and depend on public assistance to a large degree. Research on Los Angeles immigrants by Harvard University scholar George J. Borjas shows that 40.1 percent of immigrant families with non-citizen heads of household receive welfare, compared with 12.7 percent of households with native-born heads. Illegal immigrants also increase public expenditures on health care, education, and prisons. In California today, illegal immigrants’ cost to the taxpayer is estimated to be $13 billion half the state’s budget deficit. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/92 "2010-02-22T06:33:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > How much responsibility did he have for the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965? While well intended, the unintended consequence is that California is sliding into bankruptcy. Also, it has actually hurt african americans when LBJ had hoped to help them with other programmes. No, California is sliding into bankruptcy because we only tax new homeowners at superhigh rates and then pay public servants large six figure incomes for jobs that could employ two people at half the wages. See corrections officers. Then to top it all off, we have to have two-thirds of the legislature vote to pass a budget, which leads to more pork. All other taxes are regressive and property taxes decrease over time due to the inflation in the cost of homes. It is possible for someone who lives in a $2 million home to pay less property taxes than someone living in a $300,000 home by virtue of having lived there a long time. So the taxes fall most heavily on newer families. It is highly regressive. Oh, and everybody buys from Amazon to avoid the exorbitant sales tax. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/93 "2010-02-22T06:42:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Actually Chiang Kei-Sheik was on the brink of crushing the Communists in Manchuria when George Marshall forced them to negotiate instead. [http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/2292-chinese-civil-war-1945-1949/](http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/2292-chinese-civil-war-1945-1949/) The above link seems to indicate that your assertion is a propagandist version of history. After the Long March the Kuomintang was finished. And your statement about George Marshall is completely inaccurate and again, propaganda and libelous to Marshall. If Chiang was actually “on the brink of crushing the Communists” there was nothing that the US or George Marshall could have done to stop him. The statement is so absurd as to be laughable: if General Chiang was so foolish as to “negotiate” his defeat on the brink of a victory over his enemy, then he was no general to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/94 "2010-02-22T06:48:10Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > You’ve said in other threads that you consider yourself quite intelligent. Robert McNamara was quite a smart man too. He worked with Curtis LeMay in WWII - or didn’t you know that? But he made grievous errors in policy, particularly with regard to Vietnam. McNamara has admitted his errors, and we’re fortunate to learn from them. Will you be as brave? Curtis LeMay in WWII in the Pacific theater was interchangeable with his staff man Robert McNamara who did all the numbers analysis justifying the firebombing campaigns of the Japanese cities. McNamara put the methods and goals of LeMay into operations and carried them on. These methods did not work in Vietnam. The only way to win a war like Vietnam is to remove the entire population and resettle them in different areas or commit genocide against the populations. It worked for the ancient Romans. It is not something that the US is willing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/95 "2010-02-22T07:55:25Z")
> [@](#): > > No, California is sliding into bankruptcy because we only tax new homeowners at superhigh rates and then pay public servants large six figure incomes for jobs that could employ two people at half the wages. Did you read this? [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/96 "2010-02-22T12:34:52Z")
Here’s my problem with Great Debates: Great Debates is simply a platform for the mindless repetition of established partisan talking points. Nobody is interested in actually looking at data or considering questions empirically. So, people can advance a notion like “The Great Society was detrimental to poor black families because this one guy said so this one time.” **kunilou** goes to the trouble to pull some data together to consider the question, and lo and behold it looks like over the same span of time, the number of single parent white households increased at a faster rate. What’s the outcome? A chorus of chirping crickets, and then right back to the mindless blathering, and the same talking points get carried over from thread to thread. It’s this experience that led me to propose Hentor’s Law of Post Construction, which says that there is an inverse relationship between the time you take composing a post and the impact that post will have on the discussion. It’s almost like people would rather hear “You’re a great big doodoo head” than “Gee, if we look at the actual rate of change in single parent households, it doesn’t look like the Great Society can be described as detrimental to black families.” I’m not suggesting that each post has to be founded upon a novel analysis of data, but I’d like to see a greater respect for data based arguments, and for those who put forth arguments which are inconsistent with the data to at least acknowledge such. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/97 "2010-02-22T13:00:11Z")
[QUOTE=Curtis LeMay] Actually Chiang Kei-Sheik was on the brink of crushing the Communists in Manchuria when George Marshall forced them to negotiate instead. [/QUOTE] Curtis - do you have some kind of legitimate cite that would back up this frankly farcical claim? You are parroting the completely unsubstantiated claims of Joe McCarthy, who does not need to be debated on these boards as a lying sack of shit. [URL=“[Marshall Mission - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Mission)”]Specifically McCarthy alleged (and has never proven): “When Marshall was sent to China with secret State Department orders, the Communists at that time were bottled up in two areas and were fighting a losing battle, but that because of those orders the situation was radically changed in favor of the Communists. Under those orders, as we know, Marshall embargoed all arms and ammunition to our allies in China. He forced the opening of the Nationalist-held Kalgan Mountain pass into Manchuria, to the end that the Chinese Communists gained access to the mountains of captured Japanese equipment. No need to tell the country about how Marshall tried to force Chiang Kai-shek to form a partnership government with the Communists.”[4] : ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/98 "2010-02-22T14:32:42Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Did you read this? > > [National Review Online: Stop Illegals, Save CA : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) A racist tirade mostly unrelated to our annual budget mess. Ewww. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/99 "2010-02-22T15:29:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s my problem with Great Debates: Great Debates is simply a platform for the mindless repetition of established partisan talking points. Nobody is interested in actually looking at data or considering questions empirically. > > So, people can advance a notion like “The Great Society was detrimental to poor black families because this one guy said so this one time.” > > **kunilou** goes to the trouble to pull some data together to consider the question, and lo and behold it looks like over the same span of time, the number of single parent white households increased at a faster rate. > > What’s the outcome? A chorus of chirping crickets, and then right back to the mindless blathering, and the same talking points get carried over from thread to thread. > > It’s this experience that led me to propose Hentor’s Law of Post Construction, which says that there is an inverse relationship between the time you take composing a post and the impact that post will have on the discussion. It’s almost like people would rather hear “You’re a great big doodoo head” than “Gee, if we look at the actual rate of change in single parent households, it doesn’t look like the Great Society can be described as detrimental to black families.” > > I’m not suggesting that each post has to be founded upon a novel analysis of data, but I’d like to see a greater respect for data based arguments, and for those who put forth arguments which are inconsistent with the data to at least acknowledge such. **Hentor** , I’d settle for even less. I’d appreciate if people would at least check their facts before they post, or acknowledge those “facts” are actually opinions. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429/100 "2010-02-22T17:24:59Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Did you see the motorcade scene? That was not evidence? That was about as close as you get to seeing Kennedy was set up by his own people. Did you see the bodyguard called off Kennedy? How he threw his hands up in the air? I am not saying it was LBJ but it was planned and they found Wallaces prints in the room of the building he was shot from. > > I never knew that Kennedy was about to expose LBJ paying bribes. I’m sure there is a lot we are not privy to. A lot of the video is all historic footage I had never seen before. > > That evidence was real. Here’s a hint: If you want to prove that LBJ had anything to do with a plot to assassinate Kennedy, you’re gonna have to prove that there was an conspiracy first. After that, you’re gonna have to prove LBJ was involved. I had a lot more than this written, but then realized that I was debating someone who believed in Kennedy assassination conspiracies. I give you best wishes and lots of luck in your endeavors, but I will not be debating this particular topic further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rethinking-lbj-was-he-that-bad/529429.md?page=6)