# Retired govt/military double-dipping? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 25, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259 "2011-07-25T12:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/81 "2016-10-20T11:37:16Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > No bullying or threatening is necessary. The government tells Acme, “We want you to hire Joe.” Acme is fearful of making its customer upset for any reason, so Acme hires Joe. > > If Acme does not hire Joe, could it result in repercussions? Maybe. Maybe not. But Acme doesn’t want to take the chance. Hiring Joe is the least risky option. You’re confusing ‘the government’ with the acts of an _employee_ of ‘the government’. _Employees_ can and do illegal activities such as pressure a company to hire a relative or a buddy. This works against the interests of ‘the government’. Let me make this clear. It is a violation of federal law AND ILLEGAL to use your personal federal position to affect hiring practices at a contractor fulfilling a contract for ‘the government’. This will result in firing, a fine, and possible jail time. Contractors have turned in government employees for trying to affect hiring at their company. I don’t think you’ve worked for ‘the government’ or you wouldn’t confuse the acts of an individual employee with force and power of the United States Government, its laws, regulations and procedures. Yes, old retired federal employees have gone to work for contractors, and this is looked at carefully. We are tested on these regulations annually. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/82 "2016-10-20T12:52:09Z")
The problem with a lot of this discussion - a pension is money you’ve already earned. The employer pays you less so that they can put some of the money _you earned today_ into a fund that will pay you after you retire. Hence, I don’t understand the USA logic - “fire the \*\*\*\* and take away his pension!!” Basically, steal the man’s money for a transgression. If instead the person had been paid that money and put it into a 401K or drank it all up, he’d be further ahead. As for the discussion from the OP - the person was in the position, earned the money which now pays as a pension. What he does afterwards is irrelevant. The only exception I see, is if the person is working in a job position that participates in the same pension plan he/she is currently collecting from. Then, there are rules that govern how to treat that. The side issues - is the pension far too generous? Does it pay too early? Should the government or whomever be hiring real workers instead of contractors or consultants? Those are separate debates that should be had regardless of how many ex-employees return to double dip… as is the whole “in/not in social security” issue. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/83 "2016-10-20T14:14:26Z")
> [@ToddB](#): > > I Work as DoD contractor on AF base in the SW. It’s just in-believable how these retirees manage to minipulate the system to get these high paying GS job after retirement as high ranking military member. I was in AF for an enlistment and had a wonderful time. But I didn’t retire. What bugs me about these types, is the you already have a pension, why do feel the need to occupy a job in Federal Government that could to someone that the work and start on their nest egg? You guys need to re-think your spending habits, cause your Fing it up for the res that of us. :mad: for the guys out there triple dipping…? Shame on you, your stealing. You probably should go back and do the math. If you go through the normal career progression by the time you hit 20 years in the military you should be doing ok. Not well off by any means but comfortable middle class if you don’t spend like a Trump. However, that’s with full pay and all of the allowances and special pay. Retirement pay at 20 is 50% of base pay only. No housing allowance or any other money that was coming in. Suddenly your take home pay is probably about 1/3 of what you had. Military retirement for the vast majority is not money they can survive on especially when you consider these are people in their 40s who probably still have dependants. So these people need to still work. Should they be forced to go into a career that is totally unrelated to the military? Or does it make sense that companies that work with the military hire military vets? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/84 "2016-10-20T14:23:46Z")
> [@turner](#): > > “Double Dipper” here. I do get retirement pay (retired officer) and pull a federal salary. If you retire from the military, buying back your time is a terrible idea–you lose retirement. There are a lot of ins and outs, but generally, military retirement is 2.5% X number of years served (20 minimum) X base salary (typically the average of your top 3 earning years). Civilian retirement at its best is 1.1% X number of years served X salary (typically the average of your top 3 earning years). If, however, you serve less than 20 years, buy back is a pretty good deal. > > Remember that the military pays a lot of money to train troops. They need to incentivize them to stay in not only to get a good ROI, but to train and lead the younger troops. Additionally, you have a chance of getting killed or maimed. Therefore the government holds out a carrot–stay 20 and you get retirement pay. Stay 18 and you get bubkis–there was no alternative–no 401K–you left withthe clothes on your back. Most people did the mental math at 10-12 years and make a decision to go or stay. Now with the new retirement system that is more 401K-like, I think you’ll see a lot less people staying 20. > > The government civilian side tends to like retired military. Particularly in the DoD, but also in other areas. e.g. while I have stayed in DoD, my friend has worked for the VA and the Forest service. His experience has been that the military leadership training is missing from other civilian govt organizations and, frankly, they crave the order and logic his experience as an Army officer brings. > > My plan is to stay in govt service for maybe 5 more years, giving me about 16 years in civilian federal service, and retire, getting about $900 a month in federal retirement on top of my military. Obviously, I don’t think this is unfair. I made choices in my career that meant I had to be away from my family for extended periods of time, move my family every 3-4 years, put up with a lot of rules that don’t cover most of the civilian world and got paid less than most of the contractors who worked for me. The military retirement was compensation for this. When I retired, I had two job offers–one in the government with a $10K reduction from my military salary or a civilian contractor job where I would have gotten pay equal to my military salary. I took the paycut because of the opportunity for another retirement, relative job security (I’m not living contract to contract) and as a govt civilian, I still get to lead and make decisions rather than just execute an assignment. I’d like to think both the government and I benefited from the deal. Preaching to the choir. I retired from the military and went to work immediately for a US federal contractor overseas. After two years, I was hired by the Department of State. I parlayed all of that experience into a number of management positions in the following years, all of which had dealings with federal agencies and contracts. They hired me because I was an effective goal-oriented leader and manager, not because someone held a club over their heads. In fact, in my last job, the Army Corps of Engineers objected to my hiring by a contractor because I had no certification as a quality control manager. The company said, “Okay, we can find someone else, but it will take us six months to do it. Your call.” And yeah, buying back your time is a sucker’s bet. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/85 "2016-10-20T15:15:29Z")
What hasn’t been mentioned is also that many private sector gov’t contractor jobs also factor in that a lot of their applicants will be ex-military and lower the salary accordingly, at least in the field service end of the spectrum. I fulfilled my military service and got an immediate annuity but the job I’m in now pays roughly 20% less than an equivalent position with a non-government position. The upside is that I still have access to some of the benefits like use of gym facilities, participation in Canex discount/ payment plan programs, etc. I also don’t get overtime. My pay is slightly lower now than if I had stayed in the military, but I’m also building a second pension. Now, if I were to work in the oil patch I’d be making almost twice as much but I’d also never be home; the fabled work life balance is a factor here. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/86 "2016-10-20T15:19:10Z")
My father retired from the Navy as a Lieutenant (O3), then retired from the FAA, and of course he was paying into Social Security. Under the rules at the time (1992) he could not collect his full, combined, retirement. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/87 "2016-10-20T15:57:00Z")
I’m okay with “double-dipping” for retired military personnel … it’s a great incentive to keep our best and brightest in the services. It’s always bothered me that when we address wasteful spending by the Government, we start by attacking the workers. There’s a certain segment of the population who wants to cut teacher pay, police officer pay, retiree pension. I don’t know folks, we were giving the commercial banking industry $80 billion _a month_ for a number of years. Seems to me eliminating double-dipping is like using a bandaid to treat a compound bone fracture. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/88 "2016-10-20T16:16:36Z")
I’ll just add that retired pay for an enlisted man is not great. To cut off other government work as an option would be cruel. It’s better now than it was, but living on it would likely be dicey. I’d say 99.9% of the guys I knew didn’t have a nickel in the bank when they “retired”, and still had debt to pay off. I was debt-free, and had some money in the bank because of a small inheritance, but there is no way I could have NOT gone to work immediately. My retirement in 1990 as an E-7 was about $20K/year gross and I still had three kids at home. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/89 "2016-10-20T17:30:50Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Are you making a distinction between active duty military and … something else? Have military personal always paid into SS? > > In the 1980s the federal government changed the retirement system substantially so that NEW government employees pay into SS. Before that they didn’t and there are still many, many feds who don’t pay into SS. Almost anyone hired before 1982 (or was it 1984?) in fact. This gave SS a nice boost at the time in new, young employees paying in who wouldn’t expect anything from the system until many years later, which is where we are now. On the other hand, the government saved a whole lot of money on the pensions funds of those new employees. _“If you served in the military after 1956, you paid Social Security taxes on those earnings. Since 1988, inactive duty service in the armed forces reserves (such as weekend drills) has also been covered by Social Security.”_ **PDF!** > **[EN-05-10017.pdf](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10017.pdf)** > > 391.09 KB ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/90 "2016-10-20T17:33:25Z")
> [@Marion\_Wormer](#): > > In 1987, the feds ditched CSRS and came up with the new system where your retirement consisted of FERS (a very, very small pension) About $800/mo in my case. Really small. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/91 "2016-10-20T17:36:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _“If you served in the military after 1956, you paid Social Security taxes on those earnings. Since 1988, inactive duty service in the armed forces reserves (such as weekend drills) has also been covered by Social Security.”_ > > **PDF!** > [https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10017.pdf](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10017.pdf) The only time I didn’t pay into SS was when I was in a war zone and the pay was tax-free. ---
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/92 "2016-10-20T17:41:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > About $800/mo in my case. Really small. I won’t say mine, but I have 33 years civil service, paid back my 10 years active duty, so that totals up to 43 years eligible FERS service. It’s not enough to live on, on its own, but it’s good to have. I know several people say that the active duty buy back isn’t worth it, but I did the calculations for mine and I earn that buy-back payment back in about a year. It’s worth it up to a certain limit, maybe 10 years. After that you’re not going to live long enough to make it worth while. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/93 "2016-10-20T19:44:53Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’ll just add that retired pay for an enlisted man is not great. To cut off other government work as an option would be cruel. It’s better now than it was, but living on it would likely be dicey. I’d say 99.9% of the guys I knew didn’t have a nickel in the bank when they “retired”, and still had debt to pay off. I was debt-free, and had some money in the bank because of a small inheritance, but there is no way I could have NOT gone to work immediately. My retirement in 1990 as an E-7 was about $20K/year gross and I still had three kids at home. An E-7 over 20 makes about $54,000 a year base pay. $27,000 a year pension is nice if it’s not your primary income. > [@Marion\_Wormer](#): > > I won’t say mine, but I have 33 years civil service, paid back my 10 years active duty, so that totals up to 43 years eligible FERS service. It’s not enough to live on, on its own, but it’s good to have. > > I know several people say that the active duty buy back isn’t worth it, but I did the calculations for mine and I earn that buy-back payment back in about a year. It’s worth it up to a certain limit, maybe 10 years. After that you’re not going to live long enough to make it worth while. I bought back 4 years of active duty time into my state pension. Since it was calculated at my starting salary (what I was making at the time) I will make up that money in my first year of retirement. > [@DrDeth](#): > > _“If you served in the military after 1956, you paid Social Security taxes on those earnings. Since 1988, inactive duty service in the armed forces reserves (such as weekend drills) has also been covered by Social Security.”_ > > **PDF!** > [https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10017.pdf](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10017.pdf) I don’t believe it effects federal pension but many with pensions have their Social Security benefits severely limited by the Windfall Elimination Provision. I have over 30 years of SS quarters due to the military and jobs before my current one but I will get very little because of my pension. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/94 "2016-10-20T20:18:49Z")
More relevant if you’re Canadian (I’m not sure if this happens to folks down south) but there’s also the lovely pension claw-back for the military and RCMP once you try to collect on Old Age Security which means in my case that once I’m old enough to collect OAS the government promptly will remove roughly $500-600/mo. off my military pension. Fuckers. To boot my pension is fixed until I turn 65, whereupon I retroactively get indexed without backpay because I didn’t hit the magic 85 (years of service plus age). I should also note that this does not happen to any other federal or provincial department, especially to MPs or MLAs (Congress and State Legislators for Y’alls). ---
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/95 "2016-10-20T21:22:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I don’t believe it effects federal pension but many with pensions have their Social Security benefits severely limited by the Windfall Elimination Provision. I have over 30 years of SS quarters due to the military and jobs before my current one but I will get very little because of my pension. If someone is a federal employee who is retired under CSRS (which has not accepted new members since 1986) the Windfall Elimination Provision applies to them. If they are under FERS it doesn’t. SS is an integral part of the modern federal employee retirement system. CSRS was wonderful, but c’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/96 "2016-10-20T21:26:22Z")
> [@Marion\_Wormer](#): > > If someone is a federal employee who is retired under CSRS (which has not accepted new members since 1986) the Windfall Elimination Provision applies to them. If they are under FERS it doesn’t. SS is an integral part of the modern federal employee retirement system. CSRS was wonderful, but c’est la vie. la vie! ---
**Author:** ![ToddB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/54ee81/32.png) [@ToddB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToddB)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/97 "2016-10-21T16:52:34Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > So they shouldn’t hire someone who is thoroughly familiar with the work and the system, has 20-30 years experience and management skills, and hire you instead, who can’t write a coherent sentence? Got it. That exactly what I’m saying… these guys already have a pensions. There are hundreds of College graduates every year graduating with degrees that capible of doing these job with fresh new ideas. I see this crap everyday… retire one day and his buddy on shoulder the other. Oh … there’s the Chronie hook up. I e been trying 10 years to get in the Feds with no luck! US is a joke. Chronyism is the way to go. Oh… btw… I’m typing iPhone, so cut me some slack. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/98 "2016-10-21T18:35:36Z")
> [@ToddB](#): > > That exactly what I’m saying… these guys already have a pensions. There are hundreds of College graduates every year graduating with degrees that capible of doing these job with fresh new ideas. I see this crap everyday… retire one day and his buddy on shoulder the other. Oh … there’s the Chronie hook up. I e been trying 10 years to get in the Feds with no luck! US is a joke. Chronyism is the way to go. Oh… btw… I’m typing iPhone, so cut me some slack. While I understand your frustrations, there is another side of this. Here in my office we hired a Navy Captain into a civilian position. You’d say this is BS, just one guy helping another guy out instead of a deserving person like you. But this Navy Captain has been working in the Pentagon for 15 years. He has worked on this one project for three years. He knows all of the others on the project, is up to date on what is going on and has a better grasp on the program than anyone else, has a Master’s degree and is a proven leader and worker. Just why would we hire someone off the street who isn’t nearly as conversant, experienced or competent as this guy? Why shouldn’t the government hire the best person for the job? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/99 "2016-10-21T20:31:57Z")
> [@ToddB](#): > > That exactly what I’m saying… these guys already have a pensions. There are hundreds of College graduates every year graduating with degrees that capible of doing these job with fresh new ideas. I see this crap everyday… retire one day and his buddy on shoulder the other. Oh … there’s the Chronie hook up. I e been trying 10 years to get in the Feds with no luck! US is a joke. Chronyism is the way to go. Oh… btw… I’m typing iPhone, so cut me some slack. Maybe you should try a different entry point. Join the Peace Corps; gives you some government experience and a good resume point. Shows you’re willing to put up or shut up under trying circumstances. Of course, it’s difficult, which may not be what you’re willing to do. There’s also military service, but I don’t know how old you are, so that may be out. For fresh college graduates (depending on the degree) the Foreign Service or USAID might also be an entry choice, but the exam for the FS is a tough one. And I hear that the Postal Service is hiring. And here’s a news flash: “who you know” has been a key dynamic in business since business was invented. If you think it’s only practiced in the US, you’re suffering under a serious delusion. The government certainly has some cronyism (note the spelling) going on , but you are normally hired based on your application. Government applications are a pain to get right. You MUST answer all the job announcement questions thoroughly and precisely, and you MUST meet all qualifications. So if you’re right out of college, the likelihood of meeting the experience portion of the job announcement is going to be slim. Government agencies receive thousands of applications for job openings, so the reviewers are merciless in culling out those who do not properly address the job announcement. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259/100 "2016-10-21T20:39:18Z")
> [@ToddB](#): > > That exactly what I’m saying… these guys already have a pensions. There are hundreds of College graduates every year graduating with degrees that capible of doing these job with fresh new ideas. I see this crap everyday… retire one day and his buddy on shoulder the other. Oh … there’s the Chronie hook up. I e been trying 10 years to get in the Feds with no luck! US is a joke. Chronyism is the way to go. Yes, a very small pension, not enuf to live on. _Fresh new ideas_ arent as good as experience. Besides, those _fresh new ideas_ are very likly ideas that the experienced guys have tried and found out didnt work. However, do you have a 4yr degree? Note that the Border Patrol and the IRS are often hiring. Entry level positions are not filled by cronyism. Start at the bottom, as a GS 7 like I did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retired-govt-military-double-dipping/590259.md?page=6)