# Retrospective Downgrading of Talent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2019, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601 "2019-06-16T11:53:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/61 "2020-05-08T13:38:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, Miller, would you risk a beating from two-time Academy Award winner Kevin Spacey? Or even worse, desecrate the sanctity of this unblemished forum with such base and scatological terms as… the four-letter synonym for _doo-doo_? Roll out the couch, gentlemen; I feel faint. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/62 "2020-05-08T14:08:34Z")
> [@Casparlatete](#): > > Well, in my humble opinion, I think you should put your moderator’s hat back on, & the first thing you should do is moderate your language. I’ll be sure to give your concerns about my language all the attention they deserve. > [@](#): > > I’m sure Spacey has a very clear identity outside of his profession, but being an actor is what he is … Not anymore! Now he’s just an old creep with no job. > [@](#): > > Only second-class people bang on & on to the world about their ‘inner lives’. Nobody has said anything about “inner lives,” so I’m not sure what this is in reference to. > [@](#): > > Why do you call him a “shit” & would you dare say it to his face? I call him a piece of shit because of all the sex crimes he committed, and yes, I would absolutely say it to his face. What’s he going to do, physically assault me? Good - then he can finally go to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/63 "2020-05-08T14:27:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He’s been accused of a lot more than just that. Has he been convicted of any more of that? Or is this another strike for trying someone in the public space? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/64 "2020-05-08T15:27:01Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Has he been convicted of any more of that? What does conviction have to do with private actions in response to perceptions of wrongdoing? > [@](#): > > Or is this another strike for trying someone in the public space? Why not, since it’s the public space he’s very publicly lamenting no longer occupying? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/65 "2020-05-08T16:03:59Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Has he been convicted of any more of that? Or is this another strike for trying someone in the public space? Here’s a fairly comprehensive list of accusations. It certainly appears to establish a pattern, but I don’t see any convictions or admissions of guilt. > **[Kevin Spacey | Sexual misconduct allegations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Spacey#Sexual_misconduct_allegations)** > > On October 29, 2017, actor Anthony Rapp alleged that Spacey, while appearing intoxicated, made a sexual advance toward him at a party in 1986, when Rapp was 14 and Spacey was 26. Rapp had also shared this story in a 2001 interview with The Advocate, but Spacey's name was redacted from publication to avoid legal disputes and public outing. Spacey stated on Twitter that he did not remember the encounter, but that he owed Rapp "the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply ina Fifteen others... ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/66 "2020-05-08T17:52:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What does conviction have to do with private actions in response to perceptions of wrongdoing? > > Why not, since it’s the public space he’s very publicly lamenting no longer occupying? It has everything to do with it MrDibble, it has to do with being guilty or innocent. Here is the crux of the argument. If all it takes is an accusation to get you fired, removed or some other such thing that damages you, that is a terribly wrong world we live in. We have come to almost accept it and some of you embrace it…UNTIL it happens to you or someone close to you! Kavanaugh, Biden , etc It’s wrong, it was wrong then, and it’s still wrong NOW and will forever be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/67 "2020-05-08T18:29:28Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > It has everything to do with it MrDibble, it has to do with being guilty or innocent. > > Here is the crux of the argument. > > If all it takes is an accusation to get you fired, removed or some other such thing that damages you, that is a terribly wrong world we live in. We have come to almost accept it and some of you embrace it…UNTIL it happens to you or someone close to you! > > Kavanaugh, Biden , etc > > It’s wrong, it was wrong then, and it’s still wrong NOW and will forever be wrong. I’m not really clear on what you’re advocating, here. I think the accusations against Spacey are very strong, and that makes me really disinterested in watching anything he’s in anymore. Because he lacks a criminal conviction, I should, what? Force myself to sit through his movies and TV shows? Avoid watching them, but not tell anyone why? And how does this work for the studios? If I’m casting for a movie, and I don’t want a sexual predator on my movie set, should I be forced to hire him anyway? Should the government step in and make sure Spacey can get a job? Hollywood is in a right-to-work state, which means you can be fired for any reason, or no reason at all: do you think there should be any other employment protections, or just ones for people accused of sexual assault? Do you think it’s unjust that OJ Simpson hasn’t gotten an acting job in a quarter century? Should he have walked out of the courtroom and onto a studio back lot and picked up his film career where it left off, like nothing happened? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/68 "2020-05-08T18:33:57Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > If all it takes is an accusation to get you fired, removed or some other such thing that damages you, that is a terribly wrong world we live in. Of course in this case we have don’t have AN accusation. We have _dozens_ of accusations from multiple venues, with multiple accusations IN multiple venues. Including from some rich and powerful folks that have no need to gold-digging. _Twenty_ accusations at the Old Vic alone, three of whom were sufficiently worked up to call the cops. Where I work HR would have given him the boot long before it got to that point. Spacey has not been convicted of anything. But the circumstantial evidence that he is a dirtbag is kinda overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/69 "2020-05-08T19:32:19Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > It has everything to do with it MrDibble, it has to do with being guilty or innocent. At the risk of sounding like a stuck record: What does “guilty” or “innocent” have to do with\*\*\* private actions \*\*\*in response to perceptions of wrongdoing? > [@](#): > > If all it takes is an accusation to get you fired, removed or some other such thing that damages you, that is a terribly wrong world we live in. That is the world we’ve \*always \*lived in. It’s just that now, those accusations can be leveled against powerful men, not just the powerless. > [@](#): > > It’s wrong, it was wrong then, and it’s still wrong NOW and will forever be wrong. …only if they’re false. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/70 "2020-05-08T21:33:09Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > If all it takes is an accusation to get you fired, removed or some other such thing that damages you, that is a terribly wrong world we live in. We have come to almost accept it and some of you embrace it… Not one person in this thread has said that just an accusation is moral justification for firing someone. Not one. The evidence against Spacey is way, way past just an accusation. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/71 "2020-05-08T22:46:53Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > If all it takes is an accusation to get you fired, removed or some other such thing that damages you, that is a terribly wrong world we live in. We have come to almost accept it and some of you embrace it…UNTIL it happens to you or someone close to you! Big opponent of at-will employment are you? Welcome to the other side. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/72 "2020-05-08T23:44:26Z")
People get fired all the time for white-collar crimes that aren’t prosecuted or even brought to the attention of the police. Embezzlement, fraud, intellectual property violations. ---
**Author:** ![Tabco](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tabco/32/7644_2.png) [@Tabco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabco)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/73 "2020-05-09T21:02:03Z")
I think it can be very difficult to separate the character an actor is portraying from the real-life actions of that actor. Take, for example, the scene from _Pay It Forward_ where Spacey’s character intercedes when a man approaches Haley Joel Osment’s character in a bus station. The irony of watching that scene now is palpable, and in my opinion lowers the viewing experience of the movie. The actual talent on display in Spacey’s acting hasn’t changed, but somehow his role in elevating the movie (or any movie) is now diminished, and in that respect there can be a sort of downgrading. Guess I’m having a hard time describing what I mean but I hope that made some sense. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/74 "2020-05-09T23:57:14Z")
> [@Tabco](#): > > I think it can be very difficult to separate the character an actor is portraying from the real-life actions of that actor. > > Take, for example, the scene from _Pay It Forward_ where Spacey’s character intercedes when a man approaches Haley Joel Osment’s character in a bus station. The irony of watching that scene now is palpable, and in my opinion lowers the viewing experience of the movie. The actual talent on display in Spacey’s acting hasn’t changed, but somehow his role in elevating the movie (or any movie) is now diminished, and in that respect there can be a sort of downgrading. Guess I’m having a hard time describing what I mean but I hope that made some sense. I know what you mean. I saw Baby Driver again recently, and watching Spacey manipulate Ansel Elgort into staying with his gang was deeply unsettling in ways the film did not intend. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601/75 "2020-05-10T02:26:24Z")
Strangely, the one where he put Gwyneth Paltrow’s severed head in a cardboard box I still have no problems with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retrospective-downgrading-of-talent/835601.md?page=3)