# Return of "Deflategate" **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 6, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401 "2015-05-06T17:33:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/201 "2015-05-16T15:43:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Tell us, in your own words or even quoting Wells, how this investigation got started. Hint: Your search word is Grigson. You seem to be suggesting that it is a point in your favor that, prior to the game, “it [was] well known around the league that” the Patriots’ ball boys let air out of the balls after the refs die their pre-game certification. The Patriots being known as cheaters prior to the game, the balls turning out to be deflated, the video of the guy taking the balls into the bathroom, and the texts of the guys taking about deflating the balls… Seems pretty fucking straightforward to me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/202 "2015-05-16T23:02:36Z")
No, you’re still off the mark. You’re presenting the Colts’ “it is well known” claim as _fact_, not middle-school bitchiness, but _fact_, while claiming to be a master of factuality as well (gotta watch that stuff, people tend to remember). You are also failing, for reasons you _could_ explain but are still pretty obvious, to present as fact that the Colts’ balls were \*also \*found underinflated at that game, in particular. You can be forgiven for not mentioning Adam Schefter’s earlier report, no doubt from “sources”, that all the Pats’ balls were found properly inflated except for the one the Colts got their hands on, since Schefter is no longer mentioning that (it’s unclear why anyone believes what he says about the subject anymore, but that’s a side issue). You also are declining to reply to the other _fact_, already brought to your attention, that inflation problems have been found _everywhere they’ve been looked for_, which FTR is for only two teams, and the inescapable inferences from that _fact_. You also know of, but oddly fail to mention, all the other QB’s who have made comments along the lines of “Sure, it is ‘well known around the league’ that we all did something”, but that no other teams were ever looked at. But you are no longer claiming as fact that only the Patriots did it, that being contrary to the aforesaid inescapable inferences despite the NFL’s failure to act accordingly. That non-repetition does at least count in your favor, even if your failure to acknowledge it does not. Here, let me do it for you this time: “More probable than not!” “At least generally aware!” “Brady Sucks!” “_Steelers!_” Gawdamighty. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/203 "2015-05-16T23:43:18Z")
What The Fuck? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/204 "2015-05-17T00:05:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, you’re still off the mark. You’re presenting the Colts’ “it is well known” claim as _fact_, not middle-school bitchiness, but _fact_, while claiming to be a master of factuality as well (gotta watch that stuff, people tend to remember). \*\*You are also failing, for reasons you _could_ explain but are still pretty obvious, to present as fact that the Colts’ balls were \*also \*found underinflated at that game, in particular. \*\*You can be forgiven for not mentioning Adam Schefter’s earlier report, no doubt from “sources”, that all the Pats’ balls were found properly inflated except for the one the Colts got their hands on, since Schefter is no longer mentioning that (it’s unclear why anyone believes what he says about the subject anymore, but that’s a side issue). Bolding mine I don’t know why I’m bothering, but just because you repeat this ad nausem, it doesn’t make it true. Page 7 of The Wells Report, bullet 10 says: “Each of the 11 Patriot balls tested at halftime measured below the minimum 12.5 psi level established by the Playing Rules on both gauges. Each of the 4 Colts balls tested measured within the permissible 12.5 to 13.5 psi range on at least one of the gauges.” I’ll leave it to you to figure out why what you keep spewing is wrong, Brady was suspended, the Patriots lost 2 draft picks, and were fined by the NFL, and most NFL fans, players, and other organizations all view the Patriots for what they are… cheaters. Very good cheaters. But a cheat is still a cheat. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/205 "2015-05-17T00:07:32Z")
Let me try something you might find more accessible: If you hear one of the girls at the eighth-grade table in the school cafeteria say “Well, everyone \*knows \*she’s a total slut!”, do you then accept it as _fact_ that she’s a total slut? Goodell did essentially that, and so do some of you. Do you go on to consider it fact that none of the other girls are total sluts? Do you then look for evidence that that girl, and \*only \*that girl, is a total slut and banish her from your group when you find a photo on Facebook of her holding hands with some guy? Goodell did essentially that, too. He has the support of many of the other eighth-grade girls, who never liked how their target got all the attention from the teachers and the boys, and are cheering to see her finally get it for something, no matter what it took. Was that a more accessible analogy for you? :rolleyes: Back to the world of fact: As you yourself note: > [@](#): > > Page 7 of The Wells Report, bullet 10 says: > > “Each of the 11 Patriot balls tested at halftime measured below the minimum 12.5 psi level established by the Playing Rules on both gauges. Each of the 4 Colts balls tested measured within the permissible 12.5 to 13.5 psi range on at least one of the gauges.” You for some reason are leaving out that the two gauges were around 0.5 psi different, the one the Pats pressures were reported by were via the low-reading one, and when the few Colts balls measured similarly they switched to the other one. Wells called Referee Anderson a liar and claimed the opposite was true, that they were done with the same gauge. Tell us if you see any problems there. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/206 "2015-05-17T00:13:35Z")
\ Holy fuck… somebody done lost their shit up in this bitch. I’m just gonna pretend I was never here. \ ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/207 "2015-05-17T05:48:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Let me try something you might find more accessible: If you hear one of the girls at the eighth-grade table in the school cafeteria say “Well, everyone \*knows \*she’s a total slut!”, do you then accept it as _fact_ that she’s a total slut? Goodell did essentially that, and so do some of you. > > Do you go on to consider it fact that none of the other girls are total sluts? Do you then look for evidence that that girl, and \*only \*that girl, is a total slut and banish her from your group when you find a photo on Facebook of her holding hands with some guy? Goodell did essentially that, too. > > He has the support of many of the other eighth-grade girls, who never liked how their target got all the attention from the teachers and the boys, and are cheering to see her finally get it for something, no matter what it took. > > Was that a more accessible analogy for you? :rolleyes: > Back to the world of fact: As you yourself note:You for some reason are leaving out that the two gauges were around 0.5 psi different, the one the Pats pressures were reported by were via the low-reading one, and when the few Colts balls measured similarly they switched to the other one. Wells called Referee Anderson a liar and claimed the opposite was true, that they were done with the same gauge. > > Tell us if you see any problems there. Unlike you, I quoted an exact quote from the report, and gave the page and location. According to you, that isn’t what it really says, and then you 1) accuse me of leaving out information that wasn’t in my quoted text. And 2) you say something incomprehensible about 8th grade sluts. If there is such a thing as message board Tourettes, I think you would be Exibit A… And Exibit B through Exibit Z. You have completely lost any grasp of perspective… And here. For my final communication to you on this subject. Here is your 8th grade sluts :rolleyes:, which seems to mean more to you than logic or words. You have convinced me, the SDMB board membership, and NFL Fans everywhere. You would be doing the NFL a service if you would contact their offices directly, and sit down with Goodell, Wells, and every other small, conspiracy-minded executive and set them straight. Because you’ve done a lot of convincing here. :rolleyes: might I suggest you send these threads to help the Patriot Lawyers put up their defense. It’s been so well thought through. To be honest, at first, I thought you were kidding. But the amount of time you have spent typing incoherent posts, especially your last few gems in this thread, indicate a deeper issue. But I am not exactly sure what any of us could expect… You still believe that Elvis is alive. He’s hiding on a small island in the pacific, with Jimmy Hoffa, and New England Patriots ethics. All have been missing for years. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/208 "2015-05-17T20:32:55Z")
THe NFL Network’s Heath Evans brings up the [“loser’s mentality”](http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/05/16/patriots-player-heath-evans-says-loser-mentality-behind-cheating-accusations/bFHr8VhSfFeuHQ2v6viO9I/story.html?p1=feature_stack_1_hp) behind so much of what you’re hearing, or saying, today: > [@](#): > > "I hate to say it, but this is such a loser’s mentality. So you can go to Spygate and say, ‘Oh there’s precedent, they’ve done this before.’ No, the score was what, 47-7?” > > Evans wasn’t done there. > > “The problem is, he accused us of cheating? I’ll accuse Karlos of not bringing his defense to Foxboro that day, because it was a butt whooping,” he said. “That’s what it was. Period. The end.” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/209 "2015-05-17T20:54:04Z")
An ex-Patriot players says exactly what you would expect an ex-Patriots player to say. Stunning news development there, Elvis. Well done. In other breaking news, scientists say water is wet and that the sun appears to rise in the East. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/210 "2015-05-17T20:54:26Z")
This is like dealing with kids. You punish them for something relatively minor and they say “but what did I do?”, as if it’s the first time they ever did anything. It’s only the first time they got caught. Same-same here. Patriots fans all want to keep it to one specific instance, in this case one half of one game, and with Spygate one single instance, because the only time the team did it was the only time they got caught. Which, of course, is utter nonsense. Nate Silver called them out with numbers, for God’s sake. But nope, only happened once, and what’s the big deal? Petulant children. That’s what we’re dealing with here. Clever children who never thought they’d get caught the first time, and never thought it could happen again. It’s no wonder Aaron Hernandez fit in so well there. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/211 "2015-05-17T22:53:56Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Petulant children. That’s what we’re dealing with here. Clever children who never thought they’d get caught the first time, and never thought it could happen again. It’s no wonder Aaron Hernandez fit in so well there. Like Big Ben? Who took a four game penalty for exactly that reason in 2010. I mean, unproven accusations of sexual assault = unproven accusations of ordering footballs deflated, right? Look, I have no dog in this hunt. I barely watch the NFL at all and when I do I watch the semi-pro version in Tampa, but from a distance there is no way at this point to even pretend the NFL office is at all consistent on investigating and punishing behavior. On or off the field. It’s like watching the Keystone Kops. The NFLPA will own this in court. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/212 "2015-05-18T00:48:58Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Like Big Ben? Who took a four game penalty for exactly that reason in 2010. I mean, unproven accusations of sexual assault = unproven accusations of ordering footballs deflated, right? On the one hand, we have a 200+ page report chronicling on-field cheating. On the other we have a DA who looked at the evidence, said he prosecuted crimes, not morals, and didn’t prosecute. One was proven to a standard and one was not. And yet, Ben was suspended and he didn’t cry like a bitch about it, nor did the team (whose owner was absolutely furious about it). > [@](#): > > Look, I have no dog in this hunt. I barely watch the NFL at all and when I do I watch the semi-pro version in Tampa, but from a distance there is no way at this point to even pretend the NFL office is at all consistent on investigating and punishing behavior. On or off the field. It’s like watching the Keystone Kops. The NFLPA will own this in court. They will? The NFL has absolute jurisdiction over on-field issues. What can a court say? Will the court later overrule a bad call that cost a team a crucial game? Can a team then sue its way into the playoffs? The NFLPA has the absolute right to strike to negotiate the commissioner’s authority in cases like this away, and that’s the extent of their abilities in this case. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/213 "2015-05-18T01:09:40Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Same-same here. Patriots fans all want to keep it to one specific instance, in this case one half of one game, and with Spygate one single instance, because the only time the team did it was the only time they got caught. Which, of course, is utter nonsense. Nate Silver called them out with numbers, for God’s sake. But nope, only happened once, and what’s the big deal? I suspect I’m not getting anywhere here, but again, please don’t confuse the loud ones with “all” Patriots fans. Most of them haven’t said anything about it at all. The ones who are making noise are naturally going to be the ones who are trying to convince people (and themselves, probably) that there’s nothing to this. And frankly I don’t think anyone has ever tried to claim that Spygate encompassed one game. Most defenses of that were along the lines of “everybody’s doing it.” And just out of pure curiosity, can you link to Nate Silver’s analysis? I looked but couldn’t find anything. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/214 "2015-05-18T01:22:37Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > And just out of pure curiosity, can you link to Nate Silver’s analysis? I looked but couldn’t find anything. Pardon me, it wasn’t Nate Silver per se, just some of his contributors. I forget that he’s not the only guy on the site. [FiveThirtyEight Dissects The Deflategate Report](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/fivethirtyeight-dissects-the-deflategate-report/) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/215 "2015-05-18T02:19:30Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > On the one hand, we have a 200+ page report chronicling on-field cheating. On the other we have a DA who looked at the evidence, said he prosecuted crimes, not morals, and didn’t prosecute. One was proven to a standard and one was not. And yet, Ben was suspended and he didn’t cry like a bitch about it, nor did the team (whose owner was absolutely furious about it). And even with all that, the best they can say is that it is “more likely than not” that Brady knew about it while specifically stating that the Patriots’ leadership probably didn’t. Wow. That’s some serious organized cheating there. > [@](#): > > They will? The NFL has absolute jurisdiction over on-field issues. Subject to the CBA, yes. However, it’s clear that the NFL is struggling with disciplinary issues. They’ve taken a number of black eyes over the last few years and overreacting to this doesn’t make them look good. Every penalty they levied is of unprecedented severity. Particularly given that: one, they were warned about this by the opponent and then didn’t take steps to prevent shenanigans until halftime; two they had cases of football tampering earlier and the “penalty” was a warning to cut it out. You don’t go from “hey quit that” to “here’s a huge penalty” in one step without looking like you have an axe to grind. For what it’s worth, I don’t believe this is because it was the Pats and that somehow Goodell has it out for the team or Brady. I think it’s because Goodell is tired of getting blasted on discipline and wanted to make a statement that he really is a tough guy. Problem is that he picked a relatively weak hand to go all in. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/216 "2015-05-18T02:48:42Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And even with all that, the best they can say is that it is “more likely than not” that Brady knew about it while specifically stating that the Patriots’ leadership probably didn’t. Wow. That’s some serious organized cheating there. This sounds like you are ignorant of the fact that the specific language regarding the level of proof established by the league, independent of this incident, was “more probable than not.” The report states that level of proof because that is the specific criterion level they were tasked to determine. It is not necessarily “the best they could say.” If you were ignorant of that, I have to wonder why, since it has been pretty widely discussed. As for organized cheating, I don’t see your point. The evidence suggests it was as organized as it needed to be. Brady colluded with two staff members and incentivized them to break the rules. They were successful for a long time. Why would they need to be more organized? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/217 "2015-05-18T02:52:09Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Pardon me, it wasn’t Nate Silver per se, just some of his contributors. I forget that he’s not the only guy on the site. > > [FiveThirtyEight Dissects The Deflategate Report](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/fivethirtyeight-dissects-the-deflategate-report/) Thanks for that. I’m glad to see that, because 538 were kind of dismissive pricks on the subject the first time around. I’d like it better if they acknowledged that a bit more clearly. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/218 "2015-05-18T03:09:03Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And even with all that, the best they can say is that it is “more likely than not” that Brady knew about it while specifically stating that the Patriots’ leadership probably didn’t. Wow. That’s some serious organized cheating there. I think you have to understand what that phrase means in the context of the NFL offices. According to Bill Poulian (sorry, if I spelled that wrong) and Roger Cossack, ESPN Legal Analyst, that phrase is NFL-ese for “you are guilty”. People keep getting hung up on this idea of this being a criminal court case, innocent until proven guilty, and beyond a reasonable doubt. All of that doesn’t apply here. The phrase “more probable than not” is supposedly the NFL legal team’s weasel words to keep them from getting sued for public defamation or slander, or something, by a player or coach, while telling the league members exactly what they believe happened. I don’t believe a league has to prove anything to a 100% certainty to penalize either players, owners or organizations. Ultimately, the other 31 owners, if they disagreed with Goodell’s ruling, would be looking for his successor. They aren’t. And I have not heard any rumors of that from anyone, anywhere, except from the wishful-thinking, angry, lunatic-fringe Patriot fans. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/219 "2015-05-18T03:21:22Z")
There is, of course, no context in which the standard of proof is 100% certainty. Patriots’ fans seem woefully ignorant of this. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/220 "2015-05-18T04:05:01Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Pardon me, it wasn’t Nate Silver per se, just some of his contributors. I forget that he’s not the only guy on the site. > > [FiveThirtyEight Dissects The Deflategate Report](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/fivethirtyeight-dissects-the-deflategate-report/) Thanks. I’m not sure I’d classify that as “calling out with numbers”. I’d classify it as a “chat log”. For the record, I’m more or less on the side of “Pats (or the three named in the report) at least occasionally tampered with inflation levels.” I find some things compelling in the Pats rebuttal (particularly the gauge issue) and some things thoroughly absurd (THE DEFLATOR), but the evidence overall leans me toward your side. But I don’t think 538 has really provided any particular evidence either way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401.md?page=12)