# Return of "Deflategate" **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 6, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401 "2015-05-06T17:33:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/81 "2015-05-12T17:07:14Z")
> [@Paintcharge](#): > > Those were the pressures measured at halftime. The officials did not record the pre-game pressures. It is assumed that they were between the legal 12.5 and 13.5. No, it was not assumed. Anderson checked the inflation levels. Any below 12.5 were inflated to 12.5. Two Patriot balls were thus inflated. Any above 13.5 were deflated to 13.5. No balls exceeded 13.5. The Patriots balls were all at 12.5 before the game. The Colts balls were within 0.1 psi of 13.0. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/82 "2015-05-12T17:09:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > No, it was not assumed. Anderson checked the inflation levels. Any below 12.5 were inflated to 12.5. Two Patriot balls were thus inflated. Any above 13.5 were deflated to 13.5. No balls exceeded 13.5. > > The Patriots balls were all at 12.5 before the game. The Colts balls were within 0.1 psi of 13.0. Is there a written record of this? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/83 "2015-05-12T17:19:20Z")
No, Anderson was going by memory. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/84 "2015-05-12T17:29:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, Anderson was going by memory. Like every other game played. Ever. The rule does not require that there be a written record of the inflation numbers. Unless you wish to take yet another desperate swing and include Anderson in some kind of conspiracy or accuse him of lying during the investigation, it’s pretty clear he measured the balls and had them inflated to the proper range before the game. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/85 "2015-05-12T17:31:04Z")
No, the point is that the supporting data is unreliable. Just as it would be if any other team was investigated for this. Was that really not clear? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/86 "2015-05-12T17:33:42Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Like every other game played. Ever. The rule does not require that there be a written record of the inflation numbers. Unless you wish to take yet another desperate swing and include Anderson in some kind of conspiracy or accuse him of lying during the investigation, it’s pretty clear he measured the balls and had them inflated to the proper range before the game. It doesn’t tell us anything about the accuracy of the measurements. He could be mistaken without being part of a conspiracy. My question was just to clarify what the facts are, I think it is more likely than not that he found the balls to be in the allowed range of inflation according to the gauge he used. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/87 "2015-05-12T17:34:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, the point is that the supporting data is unreliable. Was that not clear? Very little of what you ever say is “clear”. What “supporting data” are you on about now? Anderson and his team checked the balls, inflated the ones that needed to be to be legal, just like Hentor said. What “supporting data” is unreliable? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/88 "2015-05-12T17:35:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Very little of what you ever say is “clear”. It may make you uncomfortable at times, but it’s clear. > [@](#): > > What “supporting data” are you on about now? Sigh. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I think it is more likely than not Well done. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/89 "2015-05-12T17:40:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It doesn’t tell us anything about the accuracy of the measurements. “The Logo and Non-Logo Gauges appear to have worked reliably and consistently on Game Day, and the difference in the pressure drops between the teams was not caused by a malfunction of either gauge. Based on our experimental results, both gauges would have read consistently and with good repeatability when used in the range of temperatures to which they were exposed in the Officials Locker Room (approximately 67 to 74°F) and when used to measure a range of pressures that includes those measured on Game Day (approximately 10 psig to 14 psig).” From the report. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/90 "2015-05-12T17:41:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It may make you uncomfortable at times, but it’s clear. > > Sigh. > > Well done. 😉 Wow, another inane and substance-less reply from ElvisL!ves. Give me a minute to get my surprised face on. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/91 "2015-05-12T17:48:52Z")
This is who Wells hired to give him his results: > [@](#): > > When some of the world’s best-known companies faced disputes over secondhand smoke, toxic waste in the jungle and asbestos, they all turned to the same source for a staunch defense: Exponent Inc. > > Now that same engineering and consulting firm has been hired by Toyota Motor Corp. as it seeks to fend off claims that sudden acceleration in its vehicles could be caused by problems in its electronic throttle systems. > … > > He said the firm often comes up with results that don’t favor clients, although he couldn’t provide specific examples. > … > > Ford, General Motors Corp. and Chrysler hired Exponent to help with their defense in a slew of lawsuits filed by mechanics who alleged that asbestos in brakes caused them health problems. Exponent’s findings upheld the automakers’ argument that the brakes were not a hazard. > > The firm was hired by Exxon to show that a double hull probably would not have prevented the Valdez disaster of 1989. > … > > an Exponent study finding that dumping oil waste in the Ecuadorean rain forest did not increase cancer rates was tainted because the firm’s largest shareholder was a member of the board of Chevron Corp., which commissioned the study. Get the picture? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/92 "2015-05-12T17:53:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Get the picture? I think so. You think that Exponent fabricated their experiments and their report in order to help the NFL frame the Patriots. You’re going with the conspiracy angle then, right? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/93 "2015-05-12T17:56:55Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Wow, another inane and substance-less reply from ElvisL!ves. Give me a minute to get my surprised face on. Take the pot shots out of this thread. Comments like this have no bearing on the discussion at all. Take it to the Pit. Warnings are going to be given out for nothing but personal shot posts directed at others. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/94 "2015-05-12T17:57:47Z")
You’re going with the “If it supports the conclusion I want reached, then it must be credible, and if not, it isn’t” angle, then. Is \*that \*clear? ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/95 "2015-05-12T17:59:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It doesn’t tell us anything about the accuracy of the measurements. He could be mistaken without being part of a conspiracy. My question was just to clarify what the facts are, I think it is more likely than not that he found the balls to be in the allowed range of inflation according to the gauge he used. Which may or may not be true. His memory was such that he tested them and ensured all balls from both teams were within the rules at the same time using the same gauges. What the measurements were when Anderson tested them, I think is irrelevant. This is because the balls were deflated after he did whatever standard testing he performed. The measurements that are a problem are the measurements taken during halftime. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/96 "2015-05-12T18:02:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re going with the “If it supports the conclusion I want reached, then it must be credible, and if not, it isn’t” angle, then. Nope. I’m going with the angle that relies on the evidence. I know that’s treading unfamiliar territory for you, but I like to rely on actual evidence, such as the testimony of witnesses, the opinion of experts, and text messages, rather than rampant speculation (remember when you were blaming the Colts and saying they were the team going to be punished? Ahhhh, good times!). But I am glad we got your opinion that the evidence against the Patriots is just a conspiracy. I’ll give that opinion as much weight as I give all your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/97 "2015-05-12T18:10:49Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Nope. I’m going with the angle that relies on the evidence. After it’s been manufactured and/or filtered in such a way that it points to the conclusion you like. Been over that already. > [@](#): > > I remember when you were blaming the Colts and saying they were the team going to be punished? Ahhhh, good times! You \*really \*might want to read the part in the report about how this story got started, then. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/98 "2015-05-12T18:12:39Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Which may or may not be true. His memory was such that he tested them and ensured all balls from both teams were within the rules at the same time using the same gauges. What the measurements were when Anderson tested them, I think is irrelevant. This is because the balls were deflated after he did whatever standard testing he performed. > > The measurements that are a problem are the measurements taken during halftime. I don’t have much of an issue with the measurements per se. I have a little problem with an ad hoc process for determining whether there was an actual rule violation, but my main problem is that a new standard of enforcing rules and meting out punishment has been put in place over this triviality. This is just scapegoating IMHO, and I don’t think the same standards would have been applied to other teams. Has there been any effort to determine if other teams used improperly inflated balls? Was this kind of investigation ever carried out for other allegations of rule violations? It sounds to me like there was an assumption that the Patriots are cheaters from the beginning and all this effort was to rubber stamp a predetermined outcome. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/99 "2015-05-12T18:27:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t have much of an issue with the measurements per se. I have a little problem with an ad hoc process for determining whether there was an actual rule violation, but my main problem is that a new standard of enforcing rules and meting out punishment has been put in place over this triviality. This is just scapegoating IMHO, and I don’t think the same standards would have been applied to other teams. Has there been any effort to determine if other teams used improperly inflated balls? Was this kind of investigation ever carried out for other allegations of rule violations? It sounds to me like there was an assumption that the Patriots are cheaters from the beginning and all this effort was to rubber stamp a predetermined outcome. Well, Troy Vincent did specifically say, if I am not mistaken, that the rule violation in and of itself was a lesser offense. That the history of the Patriots (Spygate) and their seemingly systematic lack of cooperation is what really brought the hammer down. I don’t think the deflation of footballs is really what the punishment is about. I think its about the culture of breakign the rules and the consistent lack of integrity the Patriots organization plays with despite the maudlin protestations of Elvis, Teddy Bruschi, et al. It’s a “Hey, knock of your bullshit. This ‘I’m not touching you’ game is getting old.” I believe it was said back when Spygate happened that any future events of this kind under this same regime WOULD be judged and sentenced harsher. So, yeah, sure, they got hammered harder than, say, the Jaguars in that they are repeat offenders. That’s to be expected, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401/100 "2015-05-12T18:29:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It sounds to me like there was an assumption that the Patriots are cheaters from the beginning and all this effort was to rubber stamp a predetermined outcome. You don’t have to rely on “sounds to me”, though. You can actually read the report. And you can read the responses of Brady and Kraft. You can actually look at the evidence, and make a determination based on that, rather than relying on “sounds to me”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-deflategate/719401.md?page=6)