# Return of the Archons (Trek) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796 "2011-09-19T06:02:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/21 "2011-09-19T23:40:58Z")
Jason and the _Archon_ 'nauts? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/22 "2011-09-19T23:48:11Z")
::the crowd roars:: ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/23 "2011-09-20T02:06:58Z")
The Archons was a club to which Roddenberry belonged as a schoolboy, and this is the first ep in which the Prime Directive is mentioned, Memory Alpha sez: [The Return of the Archons (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Return_of_the_Archons) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/24 "2011-09-20T02:19:22Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > ::the crowd roars:: Thanks! You’re all honored to be here! ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/25 "2011-09-20T14:29:44Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Kirk argues that a society run by a computer is not, of itself, a viable society, and hence interfering with the computer is not a violation of the Prime Directive. He makes this point especially in “The Apple”. I think he’s absolutely wrong on that, at least as far as the Prime Directive goes. A society run by a computer is probably stagnant, but in the case of the Archons, that is the society they (originally, 6000 years ago) chose for themselves. He’s deciding, based on his own value system, to overturn that society. That’s exactly the kind of meddling the PD is supposed to prevent. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@The\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/26 "2011-09-20T19:58:43Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > But that was not explicitly said in the ep. Although it was something that was easy enough for the viewer to infer. Yet another great feature of Star Trek. It made you have to think and figure stuff out for yourself! Yes, what I gathered from that is the computer (Landru) had to perform some maintenance at “The Red Hour.” This maintenance would last however many hours they rioted. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/27 "2011-09-20T22:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] “The Cloud Minders”, the locals are advanced enough for the Prime Directive not to apply (and also already in contact with the Federation). It’s meddling in local politics, agreed, but Kirk prevails (mainly) by force of argument not of arms. [/QUOTE] [Trek Geek]The planet in the story Ardana is a member of the Federation[/Trek Geek] ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/28 "2011-09-20T22:22:54Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > All the good one liners have been taken, so I won’t post in this thread. Obviously no one is going to respond to this. Our computers all shut down when we read it! ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/29 "2011-09-20T23:42:13Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I didn’t realise just how much Kirk interjects himself into other peoples buisness. 🙂 Meet Yeoman Janice Rand. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/30 "2011-09-21T02:41:39Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > In “A taste of Armageddon”, Kirk finds a society that has submitted itself to waging war (for the last 500 years) by computer, and the tabulated casuakties must report to disintregration chambers. Kirk doesn’t approve, and destroys the computer. Well, his major complaint with their system was their attempt to destroy the Enterprise because their computers said it had been hit in the latest attack. He probably did not approve of their system, and would not have wanted them in the Federation, but I don’t think he would have tried so hard to upset things if not for that. > [@mlees](#): > > In “For the world is hollow…”, Kirk finds a society run by computer, and surpirse of surprises, Kirk disables it. Yeah, but if I remember correctly, the ship was heading to its destruction if they didn’t get control of it ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/31 "2011-09-21T03:27:19Z")
In “A Taste of Armageddon,” Kirk was also not pleased to learn that the USS _Valiant_ had been destroyed, and her crew all killed, when she showed up as a “casualty” in an earlier round of the Eminiar-Vendikar war simulations. In “For the World is Hollow…,” over three billion people will die if Yonada hits the planet it’s headed for. Kirk has to take control of the generation ship to avert a much greater tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/32 "2011-09-21T15:04:52Z")
In the TNG timeframe, Picard was willing to let a society die instead of violating the Prime Directive. I wonder if Picard would rather sacrifice his ship than violate the PD. The Memory Alpha article on the PD offers the speculation that the PD was continually being re-debated and reevaluated, and that Picard may have had a different opinion and priority than Kirk regarding it’s intent. In The Return of the Archons, the Enterprise came under attack (“Heat Beams”), and it’s orbit decaying. I acknowledge the self defence clause may be a valid defence here. “For the World is Hollow” I will grant was another case of justifiable interference. But in “Taste of Armaggedon”, while the Enterprise came under attack, the ship was not in danger of being destroyed (the Enterprise moved out of range, and would be able to implement General Order 24 with Photon Torpedoes), yet Kirk still overthrew that society’s way of life. In “Cloud Miner’s”, Kirk interferes with the internal affairs of another Federation member, without his ship being in danger. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/33 "2011-09-21T17:11:18Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > In the TNG timeframe, Picard was willing to let a society die instead of violating the Prime Directive. But in the Planet of the Scantily Clad Aerobics Instructors episode, he basically said, “Screw the Prime Directive, you can’t execute Wesley!” He really needs to sort out his priorities. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/34 "2011-09-21T17:42:15Z")
> [@The\_Master](#): > > Yes, what I gathered from that is the computer (Landru) had to perform some maintenance at “The Red Hour.” This maintenance would last however many hours they rioted. “Installing updates” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/35 "2011-09-21T17:44:47Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > But in the Planet of the Scantily Clad Aerobics Instructors episode, he basically said, “Screw the Prime Directive, you can’t execute Wesley!” He really needs to sort out his priorities. It was implied that Picard still felt some residual guilt for the role he played in the death of Wesley’s dad Jack Crusher aboard the _Stargazer_, and would thus be very reluctant to fail to prevent the death of Wesley himself. Even if the average viewer was demanding, “_Kill_ the boy!” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/36 "2011-09-21T18:39:37Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > In the TNG timeframe, Picard was willing to let a society die instead of violating the Prime Directive. I wonder if Picard would rather sacrifice his ship than violate the PD. > > The Memory Alpha article on the PD offers the speculation that the PD was continually being re-debated and reevaluated, and that Picard may have had a different opinion and priority than Kirk regarding it’s intent. > > In The Return of the Archons, the Enterprise came under attack (“Heat Beams”), and it’s orbit decaying. I acknowledge the self defence clause may be a valid defence here. > > “For the World is Hollow” I will grant was another case of justifiable interference. > > But in “Taste of Armaggedon”, while the Enterprise came under attack, the ship was not in danger of being destroyed (the Enterprise moved out of range, and would be able to implement General Order 24 with Photon Torpedoes), yet Kirk still overthrew that society’s way of life. > > In “Cloud Miner’s”, Kirk interferes with the internal affairs of another Federation member, without his ship being in danger. Cloud _Minders_ - no apostrophe, and the mining was on the ground (under, if we’re picky (heh, picky) ). The _Enterprise_ is in no danger but another Federation planet is unless Kirk gets his hands on the zenite p.d.q. @Icerigger - yes indeed (and I watched this only the other week). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/37 "2011-09-21T18:50:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > It was implied that Picard still felt some residual guilt for the role he played in the death of Wesley’s dad Jack Crusher aboard the _Stargazer_, and would thus be very reluctant to fail to prevent the death of Wesley himself. > > Even if the average viewer was demanding, “_Kill_ the boy!” Obligatory [link](http://www.aoltv.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/) to Wil Wheaton’s hilarious article about the Planet of the Scantily Clad Aerobics Instructors episode. He’s fully aware of what the average viewer thought of Wesley: > [@Wil Wheaton](#): > > After a quick kangaroo court, the Mediators get ready to deliver some mad justice, Edo style. Celebratory riots spontaneously break out all across America, but before too many cars can be set on fire, the away team totally cock blocks them and saves Wesley from certain death. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/38 "2011-09-21T18:52:35Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > But in the Planet of the Scantily Clad Aerobics Instructors episode, he basically said, “Screw the Prime Directive, you can’t execute Wesley!” He really needs to sort out his priorities. Does the Prime Directive apply if the Edo God can manage FTL feats? ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/39 "2011-09-21T21:38:09Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Obligatory [link](http://www.aoltv.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/) to Wil Wheaton’s hilarious article about the Planet of the Scantily Clad Aerobics Instructors episode. He’s fully aware of what the average viewer thought of Wesley: Say what you will about Wesley, Wil Wheaton seems like a cool dude. Hope they bring him back for the last season of Eureka. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796/40 "2011-09-21T23:01:26Z")
They do. Team Parrish all the way! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-archons-trek/596796.md?page=3)