# "Return of the Jedi" sucked **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580 "2014-02-18T01:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/61 "2014-02-19T03:58:58Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Lucas thought they were too stupid? (well, too “something”-I don’t remember the exact quote.) He no nuts, he’s crazy! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/62 "2014-02-19T14:32:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Clearly, Lucas’s intention. And finding out she almost got it on with her own brother really gives it a special place in the genius closet— I’m tingling all over just thinking about it, sweating and panting in the throes of artistic appreciation. Dude, every year the cons have swarms of women wearing Slave Leia outftis, there was an ep of Friends about Slave Leia, she also shows up on shows like Chuck and so forth. There really is a phenom here, it’s not just my personal tastes. Not much on that incest angle, though. But I guess that’s your thing. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/63 "2014-02-19T16:41:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Dude, every year the cons have swarms of women wearing Slave Leia outftis, there was an ep of Friends about Slave Leia, she also shows up on shows like Chuck and so forth. There really is a phenom here, it’s not just my personal tastes. > > Not much on that incest angle, though. But I guess that’s your thing. That’s all after-the-fact though. You can’t credit “Lucas’s genius” there when clearly all he was doing was calling back to pulpy tales and pin-ups ala Princess of Mars. There’s no indication he was purposefully plucking some sort of cultural chord. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/64 "2014-02-19T18:29:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think it was budget constraints-- I think it was a desire to have something cute to sell merchandise with. And it worked. > > But really, you can turn Return of the Jedi into a great movie just by making that one change: Turn the Ewoks back into Wookies. A movie with only one significant flaw isn’t all that bad. I’d LOVE to watch Princess Leia being condescending to a full-sized Wookie. _“Hey! Gimme back my hat! I NEED that hat! Here, have a granola bar! Yummy, huh?”_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/65 "2014-02-19T19:17:32Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Return of the Jedi Redux. Let’s fix it from the getgo. > > The plot outline: > > 1. Han gets rescued/Jabba gets killed. > B) ??? > iii - Darth Vader gets redeemed/the Emperor gets killed. > > I’m all ferklempt. Your topic: So, what happens in B? Suppose there wasn’t a second Death Star? I guess they needed a space battle in there somewhere (I blame Howard Hughes’ “Hell’s Angels” for this). Discuss! > [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > A 42 minute Philly Dance Party segment would fit B from your list. [Or how about this?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsrbQK9kgQg) (I haven’t watched it with sound, but it CAN"T be any better than without sound.) ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/66 "2014-02-19T19:36:01Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > As for inserting Hayden Christensen, it’s not like Sebastian Shaw’s big scene was removed. Yes, but what kind of bum deal was that for Obi Wan? Why didn’t _he_ get to be a ghost as a young man? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/67 "2014-02-19T19:52:20Z")
The film is 30 years old, for crying out loud. Everyone knows it always was, at its heart, a kids’ movie. _A kids’ movie_. Stop looking at it through **Masterpiece Theatre Citizen Kane Edition Goggles** and maybe you’d appreciate it a little more. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/68 "2014-02-19T19:59:04Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > The film is 30 years old, for crying out loud. > > Everyone knows it always was, at its heart, a kids’ movie. _A kids’ movie_. > > Stop looking at it through **Masterpiece Theatre Citizen Kane Edition Goggles** and maybe you’d appreciate it a little more. I agree with this. But, it can still be slammed for the fighting teddy bears, a flaw that was evident when it first came out. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/69 "2014-02-19T20:15:38Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > That’s all after-the-fact though. You can’t credit “Lucas’s genius” there when clearly all he was doing was calling back to pulpy tales and pin-ups ala Princess of Mars. There’s no indication he was purposefully plucking some sort of cultural chord. The whole trilogy was a call back to pulpy trends. Sandworms out of Dune. Blasters. The bar. Lucas was the first person to do so without shame. Not to mention his explicit use of the hero’s journey as structure. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/70 "2014-02-19T20:16:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The whole trilogy was a call back to pulpy trends. Sandworms out of Dune. Blasters. The bar. Lucas was the first person to do so without shame. Not to mention his explicit use of the hero’s journey as structure. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/71 "2014-02-19T20:20:05Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > The film is 30 years old, for crying out loud. > > Everyone knows it always was, at its heart, a kids’ movie. _A kids’ movie_. > > Stop looking at it through **Masterpiece Theatre Citizen Kane Edition Goggles** and maybe you’d appreciate it a little more. That’s such a terrible argument only give voice by the poor state of the worst children’s entertainment. As if children’s movies shouldn’t be held to a \*higher \*standard. The Incredibles was “a kids movie!” and it was also arguably the best superhero movie of all time. Audience is no excuse. Quality is quality and flaws are flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/72 "2014-02-19T20:26:19Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > That’s such a terrible argument only give voice by the poor state of the worst children’s entertainment. As if children’s movies shouldn’t be held to a \*higher \*standard. > > The Incredibles was “a kids movie!” and it was also arguably the best superhero movie of all time. > > Audience is no excuse. Quality is quality and flaws are flaws. I disagree. There are obvious and definitive different standards applied to a kids’ movie, and an adults’ movie. Ewoks=kids’ movie. Kids LOVED the Ewoks=success! Simple plot=kids’ movie. Kids easily followed and understand the plot=success! The film was, and still is, an outright success (ie did/does NOT suck) based completely and entirely on the predication of its target audience. Why would that not be true? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/73 "2014-02-19T21:55:54Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Agreed. Glad to hear it. By the way if **John Carter** had been more true to pulpy trends, it might have sold more tickets. Especially how Dejah Thoris was over-dressed. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/74 "2014-02-19T22:51:30Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Plus there’s a scene where the ewoks surprise some Stormtroopers by jumping out of the bushes, and then beat them down with sticks. Realistically, that stormtrooper armor means the teddy bears could have beat on them for hours and then the troopers would have just stood up and shot them, no damage but some scuffs. > > It would have been fine with the sneaky stealth like at the beginning, but once a legion shows up, it got ridiculous how effective the Ewoks were against the troopers. It really cemented the “stormtroopers suck as soldiers” meme. Since you brought the meme up, it’s also assumed that stormtrooper armor isn’t intended as a protective measure. It’s designed to draw blaster fire to protect actual high-value targets. (And maybe trigger the enemy’s internal kill count limiter. Zapp Brannigan is actually an Imperial.) ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/75 "2014-02-20T04:06:39Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > I disagree. > > There are obvious and definitive different standards applied to a kids’ movie, and an adults’ movie. > > Ewoks=kids’ movie. Kids LOVED the Ewoks=success! > > Simple plot=kids’ movie. Kids easily followed and understand the plot=success! > > The film was, and still is, an outright success (ie did/does NOT suck) based completely and entirely on the predication of its target audience. > > Why would that not be true? I disagree with your idea that kids LOVED ewoks = success. I was a kid when the first trilogy came out. The target audience? It was me. I also disagree that Ewoks = kid movie, although not completely. If you look at the first two movies, there were very few cuddly creatures thst kids would relate to. I think Lucas put them together as adult-themed movies, and realized a bit too late (i never understood why) that kids were the ones that would be buying star wars crap or asking mom and dad for star wars crap. But you can’t take a plastic R2D2 to bed, at least not like a fluffy Ewok. The plots in all three SW movies IV,V,VI were straight-forward, but the dialog wasn’t. It may have been sci-fi standard, but as a kid, I had a hard time following everything with the made-up names, planets, star systems, etc. As an adult, it is easy to follow, but as an 8 year-old, not all the time. However, as a kid, I remember thinking that ROTJ was not a great movie. And the Ewoks were one of the big reasons why. Even as a kid, I understood that suspending reality was necessary for some science fiction, but the ewoks were an insult to everyone, including kids. We could tell that there were “little people” in fuzzy bear costumes. They looked fake, they moved like earth-bound “little people”, and they were thrown in so Lucas could make lots of money on stuffed Ewoks. Imdon’t think he made as much as he wanted. Lucas, it turns out, has no idea what little kids will like or relate to. If you think he does, take a look at Jar-Jar Binks and explain that to me. He wasn’t cute. He wasn’t fun. Kids and adults loathed JJB. He’s not a punch-line for nothing. Finally, the plot, even though it was simple, did not mean it had to be a kid’s movie. Adults can easily enjoy a kids movie if done well. A perfect example of this is The Incredibles, as **dr\_drench** correctly pointed out. You can’t give Lucas a pass for making a crapola movie because kids were going to watch it. In fact, ROTJ was probably watched by more young adults than anything, since they were the kids thst grew up loving the first two Star Wars episodes. He should have made ROTJ at least on par with the first two. The third movie seemed like a money grab, a lazy effort to cash in on the franchise. I din’t think it is fair to say “it’s a good kid’s movie, so it’s ok that it wasn’t very good.” First, i think that premise is wrong, which is something Pixar has proven over the years. Second, ROTJ was a weak movie, regardless of who the target audience was. Yub yub ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/76 "2014-02-20T04:44:40Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > _A kids’ movie_. Did it really take 67 posts for this universal, utterly lame handwaving excuse to appear? It’s usually the first thing hauled out when someone utters _any_ criticism whatever of the movies. “Halt discussion! Kids movie! No criticism!” Apparently there’s nothing - _nothing_ – in the canon movies that this doesn’t excuse. Even were they utterly different in every detail than they exist now. Even if new details, no matter how awful, were added. Nothing. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/77 "2014-02-20T07:37:59Z")
No one who saw RotJ in theatres has a right to feel disappointed at Episode One. They were both entertaining but flawed rehashes of better moments. Both jam together adult elements (Falseflag politics+ Racial disharmony in the Phantom Menace and brutal gangsters+slavery in ROTJ) with childish toy-adverts. Both have a tacked on race scene, prepostously stupid guards and a low-tech race defeating an advanced army (though at least EP1 had a reason for it). A New Hope was a fantastic and ground-breaking retelling of the hero’s journey, The Empire Strikes Back was a genre Masterpiece. That being said, I’ve enjoyed every Star Wars except Attack of the Clones. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/78 "2014-02-20T14:32:46Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You’re absolutely right. The passing of time has dimmed many viewers memories. > 3. A second Death Star?? > 4. Leia is Luke’s sister?? I alway thought (and still do) that the Death Star was the original that was mostly damaged, but they were able to repair what remained even though it did look completely destroyed after _Star Wars_. To me Luke and Leia being siblings was a last minute addition because Lucas put himself in a corner with Yoda’s "there is another’. Rather than come up with a new character, he just pulled that out of his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/79 "2014-02-20T14:54:24Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Did it really take 67 posts for this universal, utterly lame handwaving excuse to appear? It’s usually the first thing hauled out when someone utters _any_ criticism whatever of the movies. > > “Halt discussion! Kids movie! No criticism!” > > Apparently there’s nothing - _nothing_ – in the canon movies that this doesn’t excuse. Even were they utterly different in every detail than they exist now. Even if new details, no matter how awful, were added. Nothing. > > Jesus. I understand I got a bit side-tracked by a response to my original post, which stated “at its heart” the film is/was a kids’ movie. My main contention in this thread is that the film is 30 years old, and difficult to look at objectively. There are many movies from the late '70s and early '80s that I had very fond recollections of, but having viewed a couple of them recently, I almost can’t even finish watching them, thinking “Wow. I can’t believe I thought _this_ was great.” Beyond that, my initial feeling was that perhaps the level of scrutiny some are levelling at RotJ would be better suited for films that were/are ostensibly more serious endeavours, a la Dune or perhaps Blade Runner. It’s a space adventure with children in mind, as a large part of its 1983 audience, and should be looked at as such. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/80 "2014-02-20T16:53:14Z")
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