# "Return of the Jedi" sucked **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580 "2014-02-18T01:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/101 "2014-02-21T18:07:07Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > The Emperor _wanted_ the Rebels to attack the Death Star. It was bait for a trap. He wanted to give them something he knew they would have to attack. He secretly got it working ahead of schedule but gave them misinformation to make them think it was still not operational. The idea was instead of wasting resources hunting them, make the gather their resources and come to you and then crush them. He missed on the “crushing” part but otherwise it worked. Yeah, right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/102 "2014-02-21T18:37:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When do we ever see a force user levitate himself? They can lift a fucking spaceship out of a swamp. Why the hell couldn’t they levitate themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/103 "2014-02-21T18:43:02Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Yeah, right. :rolleyes: What do you mean, “Yeah, right”? That was an explicit plot point in the movie. > [@terentii](#): > > They can lift a fucking spaceship out of a swamp. Why the hell couldn’t they levitate themselves? Possibly for the same reason you can’t lift yourself by your own bootstraps. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/104 "2014-02-21T19:27:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When do we ever see a force user levitate himself? I seem to recall Obi Wan & maybe Anakin doing some pretty impressive vertical leaps in the prequels. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/105 "2014-02-21T19:31:37Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I seem to recall Obi Wan & maybe Anakin doing some pretty impressive vertical leaps in the prequels. Empire, too, when Luke jumps out of the carbon freezing machine. But we’ve never seen a Jedi with the ability to hover. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/106 "2014-02-21T19:45:31Z")
Jedi are people of action, when they get their force on they’re doing something with it. Apart from the space ship demo at Dagobah and Anakin showing off with the pear, their levitation skillz are usually manifest as them chucking something at someone. So why hover (slow vertical leap?) when your ends are best met by zooming up and out of trouble and kicking ass? Hovering is, after all, just acting on the surface you’re standing on and levitating it away from you. I’d swear Yoda’s done it on camera at least once. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/107 "2014-02-21T20:04:52Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Well, yeah, it would, sort of, since the first one was, like, y’know, _destroyed_ at the end of the first movie? I mean, remember that great big explosion in which thousands of people died? That kinda was the first Death Star being blown up, right? That would be one hell of a jigsaw puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/108 "2014-02-21T20:54:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That is, I think, Lucas’ sin. He made a movie for us. We watched it and loved it. A few years later, when we were all a bit older, he made another movie for us. It was more mature, more sophisticated. And it ended with a promise of a third movie that would continue in that same way. > > But, instead, he made the third movie for the next generation. He blew us off. We, the fans who had made him rich, were left to go hang. Instead of making the movie that would have followed in logical progression – even more mature, wiser, more sophisticated, with relevance for his original fans – he said, “Sayonara, suckers, and thanks for all the money,” and made a movie for the kids we used to be. I don’t buy it. “Return of the Jedi” is not a bad movie because it appeals to a younger audience. It’s a bad movie because it is a bad movie. The rudimentary elements of a good movie are not there; it is poorly and boringly plotted, has problems in maintaining tone, characters that behave out of character, shitty dialogue, and uninspired direction (in parts; it often feels like more than one person directed it.) There’s nothing about movies aimed at younger fans that require the movie not appeal to older ones; witness the various brilliant films Pixar, Disney and Dreamworks have made. Children’s entertainment can be judged by exactly the same criteria as grownup entertainment; does the plot makes sense? Is the story compelling? Are the characters engaging? Are the production values high? Is it original in some way? Do these things strong together to make an emotionally engaging film? Those things come together for “Star Wars” just as they do, for, say, “Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs,” a very fine film aimed at kids, but they’re the same criteria you’d apply to “The King’s Speech,” a terrific film, or “Elysium,” an awful film. Those films are good and bad, respectively, for the same reasons “Star Wars” is good and “ROTJ” is mediocre. (For that matter, “Return of the Jedi” isn’t even clearly aimed at younger fans; the Ewoks obviously are, but the scenes with the Emperor’s throne room are not kid-oriented.) “Star Wars” and “The Empire Strikes Back” still hold up. They’re fine films, whether you’re 8 or 38. “ROTJ” doesn’t. It blows. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/109 "2014-02-21T20:55:35Z")
Incidentally, the fact it’s a new Death Star is something that is clearly stated in the very beginning of the film. The opening crawl reads: Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/110 "2014-02-21T20:59:27Z")
I so hope that in Episode VII they’re building another one. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/111 "2014-02-21T21:18:08Z")
I haven’t seen it since I saw it in a theater when it first came out. I recall enjoying it, except for the Ewoks and the sappy ending. I particularly liked the chase scene, through the forest, though that may have been because it was innovative technically – we hadn’t seen chase scenes filmed (/animated) like that before. My favorite movie was the 2nd of that trilogy. My favorite part of that was in the jungle with Yoda. I’m probably atypical. I especially liked his explanation of the Force (keeping in mind, it’s fiction, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/112 "2014-02-21T21:27:56Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > in the jungle with Yoda V.O. New from the Food Network! **Interior, Chef Batali’s latest place**. Yoda, sitting at a diner counter with various soups, sandwiches, and side dishes in front of him. **Montage** Yoda tries bites of various of the offerings, is visibly unhappy with all of them. Yoda (to Chef Batali) How do you get so big eating food of this kind? Batali (shrugs) V.O. It’s the latest thing from Dagobah’s master chef. IN THE JUNGLE WITH YODA! **Interior, Yoda’s kitchen** Yoda (to padawan chefling, angry at his failure) No! Roux or roux not! [crash zoom on Yoda’s face] Yoda (intensely, to camera) There is no try! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/113 "2014-02-21T21:35:43Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I so hope that in Episode VII they’re building another one. Aha! Microsoft is the general contractor, which means it takes three tries to get it right. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/114 "2014-02-21T21:43:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The Hindenburg was a commercial enterprise - after it’s destruction, you’d be hard pressed to sell tickets for Hindenburg II, which killed commercial blimp travel, even as technological advances were making them impractical for military use. > > Government projects are a little different. When Apollo 1 burned up on the launch pad, it didn’t end the space program - they built sixteen more Apollo rockets after that. Not to mention that they didn’t have to worry about increasing taxes to pay for it. “I find your opposition to a 40% rate disturbing.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/115 "2014-02-21T22:01:49Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > **Interior, Yoda’s kitchen** > > Yoda (to padawan chefling, angry at his failure) > No! Roux or roux not! > > [crash zoom on Yoda’s face] > > Yoda (intensely, to camera) > There is no try! Genius. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/116 "2014-02-21T22:30:32Z")
I’ve got a baad feeling about this. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/117 "2014-02-21T23:36:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > . . . “Return of the Jedi” is not a bad movie because it appeals to a younger audience. . . . I didn’t actually say that. I said that it’s a disappointing movie, because the first two movies implied a progression upward in quality, and Lucas didn’t follow through on that progression. > [@](#): > > It’s a bad movie because it is a bad movie. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/118 "2014-02-22T01:54:17Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia…it’s evidently a pretty difficult point to grasp in _any_ galaxy. > > Common theme, from cute little Anakin right through to cute little ewoks, is “it’s the little things that will get you.” Little Anakin blows shit up & disables a droid army, whiny punk Luke blows up the Death Star, teddy bears are critical to successfully eliminating the shield generator, and thereby the new Death Star. Heck, as noted upthread, even a boot to the ass takes out the most lethal bounty hunter in the galaxy (temporarily, evidently). It’s only fitting that the weakest movie in the series should portray the ending of the empire… If you think the lesson of Vietnam and Iraq is that the little guy with primitive weapons can take down a technologically advanced superpower, well… That’s that wrong message. Because it’s not true. America did not lose Vietnam in any real military sense. It won almost all the battles it fought. The Tet offensive left the Viet Cong nearly wiped out. America lost Vietnam because it is a democracy and the people no longer supported the war. If the U.S. was an evil empire, it could have reduced Vietnam to radioactive cinders. Iraq as well. If you’re evil enough, you can defeat insurgencies through the simple tactic of committing genocide against any people who support the insurgents. People get the same false impression about the effectiveness of passive resistance because Gandhi was successful at it. But Gandhi was successful because his ‘enemy’ was a fundamentally moral people with limits beyond which they would not go. Had India been occupied by the Nazis, passive resistance would have resulted in a lot of mass graves and little else. The empire was evil, remember? It blew up entire planets for fun. If the movie was at all realistic, the minute the Empire forces got resistance from the Ewoks they would have retreated to high above the planet and carpet-bombed the place. And they wouldn’t have cared if there was still a detachment of their own forces there. In any event, it was totally annoying how easily the Ewoks managed to dispatch the Empire’s most fearsome ground weapons. Send a few dozen Abrams tanks against a primitive tribe, and let me know how that works out for them. And the Empire’s weaponry should have made an Abrams look like a toy. But little teddy bears could bring them down. Uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/119 "2014-02-22T03:59:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > . . . But Gandhi was successful because his ‘enemy’ was a fundamentally moral people with limits beyond which they would not go. Had India been occupied by the Nazis, passive resistance would have resulted in a lot of mass graves and little else. . . . Harry Turtledove wrote a nasty little story on that premise. The British Empire might not have been all love and kisses…but there were some much, much worse people to be conquered by. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580/120 "2014-02-22T04:26:19Z")
Also, idiots do not make an empire (mostly). The AT-ST’s were not a great choice for Endor. Why send them there? And if there were Wookies on the planet, again why would you build a base/shield generator there, or at least make it bigger? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-jedi-sucked/681580.md?page=7)