# Return of the King - talkback (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504 "2003-12-17T08:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/141 "2003-12-21T17:13:14Z")
> [@](#): > > I like my EE versions of the first two movies for having some cool stuff, but the theatrical releases WERE better paced, especially Fellowship, which bogs down a few times with the added scenes. More information is not necessarily better. I’ll agree with the statement that Fellowship bogs down with the extra material (the two beginnings especially), but I thought Two Towers EE had a much better flow and made more sense than the theatrical version. It was the movie that should have been released in the theaters, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/142 "2003-12-21T17:25:00Z")
Did anyone else really dislike how bad they made poor Bilbo look? I know he’s suposed to be ancient by the end, but they made him look like the Crypt Keeper. I thought he looked sufficiently ancient in the rivendell scenes in FOTR, he was suposed to look peacefull and sleepy, not peacefull and mummified. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/143 "2003-12-21T17:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tremmie \* > \*\*Did anyone else really dislike how bad they made poor Bilbo look? \*\* No. He was 115 years old and only looked young before because of the preserving power of the Ring, which, by the end, no longer existed. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/144 "2003-12-21T18:52:17Z")
A continuity error, or a logic error – anyway, a slip-up-- just occurred to me. When Gandalf & Pippin are leaving Edoras hastily for MT, Pippin asks how far it is. Gandalf replies “3 days, as the Nazgul flies – and let’s hope there’s not one of _those_ on our tail.” Gandalf has never seen a flying Nazgul (and don’t tell me he’s a wizard and sees all.) In the National Geographic “Beyond the Movie” thing, they had two clips that didn’t make the final cut: Merry pledging his service to Theoden (not just the overhead shot, but a closeup with dialog); and Legolas and Gimli at Edoras, observing a drinking game the Rohirrim (and apparently Gimli) are playing. Bring on the EE! ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/145 "2003-12-21T21:42:51Z")
A) Gandalf probably knows about the fell beasts. He’s Gandalf the White now and he knows many things he had once forgotten. B) In the book, a flying Nazgul passes over them–headed for Orthanc–shortly after they obtain the Palantir. Pippin thinks it’s coming for him (since the Palantir is supposed to be in Orthanc and Sauron assumes that Saruman made the Hobbit look into the Palantir as torture). ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/146 "2003-12-21T22:12:48Z")
**NoCoolUserName** - I was thinking the same thing: Gandalf would know about flying Nazgul, so his remark would make sense to him. But Pippin and Merry, who Gandalf was talking to, should respond, "What?!? Nazgul can _Fly_?!! Of course, if they cut the scene from your spoiler, everything would make sense. But then they should have cut out Gandalfs line from Gandalf when they cut that scene. Sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/147 "2003-12-22T00:34:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triton \* > \*\*In the _Two Towers_, Frodo shows the Ring to a Nazgul at Osgiliath. In _RotK_, after Pippen looks in the Palantir Merry tells us Sauron thinks Pippin is the Ring-bearer. _Huh?_ Did the Nazgul forget to report the Ring, or something? I think I need to see it again; maybe this will be a little clearer to me. > \*\* Bear with me if this has been answered already. I don’t think it has. I watched the movie today for the second time, and noticed something. When Gandalf meets Faramir in Minas Tirith, Faramir says that he last saw Frodo no more than two days beforehand. It took Gandalf and Merry three days to get from Rohan to Gondor, and they’ve been in Minas Tirith for at least a day at that point. Hence, Pippin looked in the palantir _before_ Frodo showed the Ring to the Nazgul. When they pushed the Shelob things from The Two Towers to The Return of the King, it must have messed up the timelines a little. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/148 "2003-12-22T01:00:13Z")
One line I missed was when Frodo makes Sam his heir, just before going off to the Havens. He endows him with: “…all I have, and all that I might have had…” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/149 "2003-12-22T07:41:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mama Tiger \* > \*\*Sorry for the disconnect there, **Rilchiam** – I was tired enough I didn’t notice the thread had moved on half a page beyond what I was responding to, which was someone complaining about Sam’s line, “I can’t carry it, but I can carry you.” That’s what I get for reading without sufficient caffeine. > > _Sam taking the ring from Frodo (or a least a longer scene with Sam leaving “dead” Frodo behind. “Don’t go where I can’t follow” was heartrending, but the moment ended so quickly for me. I wanted to cry, but I didn’t have time!). This is my favorite chapter of the books, so naturally I would say this, but I’d love to see Sam conquering his despair and gathering the will to go on even though he thinks Frodo is dead. We know he must have done so, but I want to see it!_\*\* Me too! And what I _really_ would have liked to see play out was Sam’s moment of reckoning when he was holding the Ring. He clearly saw himself as Samwise the Strong, ruling over Middle Earth, but god bless him, his practical hobbit-ness overpowered the pull of the Ring, and he resolved only to carry it. Amazing. There are few people so uncorrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Shana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Shana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shana)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/150 "2003-12-22T08:16:41Z")
I am still high from seeing the movie yesterday. It is a bit bittersweet however. Now I’m sad there will be no more movies!! Ah well, I’ll just have to watch them all over and OVER again. Eowyn kicked butt!! I was cheering when she killed the witch king…much to my husband’s embarassment. Pippin singing! He has quite a good voice! That was such a moving scene. Oh, and when he pulled Faramir out of the fire. Shivers! The only thing I found to be a little excessive was the Legolas on the oliphaunt scene…but he’s just so darn cute I can almost forgive it. I loved this movie, I LOVED all the movies, and I adored the books. I am just an LOTR freak. I think I will go see it again in a couple of days!!! ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/151 "2003-12-22T15:11:21Z")
First off, I never thought anyone would be able to make such a good film of these books. I think I preferred the first one, simply because it was so new. By this point, it was pretty much, “Oh well, how are they going to do this scene now…” Tho I have read the books several times, the last time was several years ago. Please refresh my memory. Did Denethor send Faramir back out to an untakable Osgiliath as in the movie? Was a little confused about the puffy-faced dwarf. They focused on him during the river crossing such that I wondered what character he was supposed to be. But he really served no purpose, IMO. Probably my favorite part of the books was from Shelob to Sam rescuing Frodo. And then where they were pretending to be orcs. So, IMO, they did not do my favorite part justice. Heck, I was hoping for at least a scream from the watcher… I also really liked when the troops were marching into MT. IMO, it gave a fuller sense to the scope of Gondor. And for some crazy reason I always liked Prince Imrahil… My biggest problem was the portrayal of the eye in Barad Dur. I always had a hard time envisioning Sauron, but I sure never thought of him as a huge fiery cat’s-eye who borrowed the world’s most powerful flashlight from the **Its a Wonderful Life** bridgekeeper. Looked especially hokey (IMO) when the tower came crashing down, and the eye was kind of flicking back and forth. My personal preference would certainly have been for Gollum falling instead of Frodo wrestling him and then hanging on. And I found the effects most hokey when F & S were running from the lava. **Ms D** asked “How did they support all of these people in barren land like this?” Thought it was addressed somewhat better in the books. MT was way cool, tho. Glad I went, but I’ll be re-reading the books before I go see the movies again. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/152 "2003-12-22T15:12:42Z")
Of course that should be “puffy faced **orc** ” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/153 "2003-12-22T15:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > **Was a little confused about the puffy-faced dwarf. They focused on him during the river crossing such that I wondered what character he was supposed to be. But he really served no purpose, IMO.** I think he’s supposed to be Gothmog, Lieutenant of Minas Morgul (don’t know where I heard or saw that…) > [@](#): > > Probably my favorite part of the books was from Shelob to Sam rescuing Frodo. And then where they were pretending to be orcs. So, IMO, they did not do my favorite part justice. Heck, I was hoping for at least a scream from the watcher… Thumbing through the ROTK My biggest problem was the portrayal of the eye in Barad Dur. I always had a hard time envisioning Sauron, but I sure never thought of him as a huge fiery cat’s-eye who borrowed the world’s most powerful flashlight from the **Its a Wonderful Life** bridgekeeper. Looked especially hokey (IMO) when the tower came crashing down, and the eye was kind of flicking back and forth. My personal preference would certainly have been for Gollum falling instead of Frodo wrestling him and then hanging on. And I found the effects most hokey when F & S were running from the lava. **Ms D** asked “How did they support all of these people in barren land like this?” Thought it was addressed somewhat better in the books. MT was way cool, tho. Glad I went, but I’ll be re-reading the books before I go see the movies again. \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/154 "2003-12-22T16:01:12Z")
Gah! Hit send too soon. I was thumbing through the ROTK Pictorial Companion in the bookstore, and noticed that it refers to the Watchers. And I think the rule of thumb is that the movie tie-in material only refers to scenes that were actually shot (but not necessarily used in the final cut) – so there’s a chance the Watcher could make it into the EE, along with the Mouth of Sauron and the Voice of Saruman. Yeah, the toppling tower with Flaming Eye didn’t work for me. I half-expected cartoon exclamation marks to appear over it; maybe a “Holy crap!” thought balloon. I would’ve preferred the depiction from the book: a towering humanoid-shaped cloud that vanishes in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/155 "2003-12-22T16:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by look!ninjas \* > I watched the movie today for the second time, and noticed something. When Gandalf meets Faramir in Minas Tirith, Faramir says that he last saw Frodo no more than two days beforehand. It took Gandalf and Merry three days to get from Rohan to Gondor, and they’ve been in Minas Tirith for at least a day at that point. Hence, Pippin looked in the palantir _before_ Frodo showed the Ring to the Nazgul. When they pushed the Shelob things from The Two Towers to The Return of the King, it must have messed up the timelines a little. This seems to be the case. To be fair, it is a pretty gnarled timeline. According to _The Tale of Years_: March 5: Gandalf and Pippin depart for Minas Tirith. Frodo at the Black Gate. Pippin presumably looks in the Palantir on this day. March 7: Faramir takes Frodo to Henneth Annun. March 8: Frodo takes his leave of Faramir (from Henneth Annun, not Osgiliath). March 9: Gandalf and Pippin reach Minas Tirith. March 10: Gandalf rescues Faramir before the gates of MT. So Pippin apparently did look into the Palantir before Frodo met the Nazgul. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/156 "2003-12-22T17:10:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by squeegee \* > \*\*So Pippin apparently did look into the Palantir before Frodo met the Nazgul. \*\* Frodo: Hi, I’m Frodo. This is my companion, Sam. Sam: I’m his gardener. Nazgul: Aiiiiieeeeeeee!!! Frodo: Yes, well…nice to meet you. Oh, and this is Smeagol. He’s well…decrepid. Gollum: And sneaky. Yesss. The fat hobbit is mean and nasty, and that nasty Bagginsss has my precious! _gollum, gollum_ Nazgul: AIIIIIIEEEEEEEAAAIIIEEEE!!! Frodo: Ah. Yes. Um, well, we must be going now. Off to throw you master off into utter despair and all. Nazgul: EEEEEEEEEEE!!! ---
**Author:** ![NailBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@NailBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NailBunny)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/157 "2003-12-22T19:14:52Z")
Mr. Bunny and I saw this Saturday night, and of course loved it. I must say though, I feel I missed out on a lot of the emotional impact of the movie after viewing it in a theater that wasn’t sold out, but was damn close. Talking, sneezing, ringing cell phones, whispering and kicking little child behind me, and hundreds of people chewing more loudly on their popcorn and candy then I would have ever thought possible all took away from my enjoyment of the movie. I look forward to seeing it again in a much quieter setting. And to the girl on my left side who let out a _huge_ sigh every single time another scene started about 1/2 hour before the movie ended: you _knew_ it was going to be 3 1/2 hours, so shut the hell up!!! My favourite part was, hands down, Pippin singing cut with scenes of the men riding to their certain death, and the other guy eating noisilly, not even thinking about his son that he sent to his death. So heartbreaking. I always liked Pippin, but in this movie he really became one of my favourite characters. I liked that there was so much more singing in this movie than the other two, I understand that’s a huge part of the books. The only parts in which the effects seemed more hokey than the other movies were: Legolas on the big elephantine creature, I mean, I know he’s an elf and very spry and all that, but that still doesn’t mean he can defeat gravity and just _stand_ on the _side_ of the thing without even hanging on! And Frodo and Sam jumping out of Mount Doom and the lava exploding behind them; it looked like they were just jumping in front of a green screen. But jesus, if that’s the only effects I had a problem with, considering how much I _loathe loathe loathe_ CGI, then that’s saying something! Peter Jackson, I love you. Will you be my dad? 🙂 Seriously folks, the genius of Peter Jackson is not confined to these movies! **Dead Alive** , people, **Dead Alive**!!! Gods, I cannot wait to see what he does with **King Kong**. Oh, and I also don’t think that spiders have stingers, but then again, they’re not usually eight feet tall either, so I’ll let that slide. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/158 "2003-12-22T19:26:28Z")
I never read the books. Help me out, please. What is the Scouring of the Shire and when does it take place? Also, the eagles. Everybody was excited to see the eagles come back. Why did they leave in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/159 "2003-12-22T19:36:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sugaree \* > \*\*I never read the books. Help me out, please. What is the Scouring of the Shire and when does it take place? > > Also, the eagles. Everybody was excited to see the eagles come back. Why did they leave in the first place? \*\* The scouring of the Shire takes place when the hobbits return home and find it taken over by Saruman and his cronies. The other hobbits not being used to war or any kind of fighting basically let themselves get bossed around and pretty much treated as nothing better than slaves by Saruman (who didn’t really have much power, but still had a few hundred brigands to do his dirty work). Frodo and company (just the hobbits mind you, no more powerfull wizards or springy elves, or kingly men) raise the Shire and drive off or kill all of the brigands. I can understand why this was left out of the movies as it would have added at least another half hour to the movie AFTER the destruction of the ring, which just wouldn’t have worked at all. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504/160 "2003-12-22T20:35:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tremmie \* > \*\*The scouring of the Shire takes place when the hobbits return home and find it taken over by Saruman and his cronies. The other hobbits not being used to war or any kind of fighting basically let themselves get bossed around and pretty much treated as nothing better than slaves by Saruman (who didn’t really have much power, but still had a few hundred brigands to do his dirty work). Frodo and company (just the hobbits mind you, no more powerfull wizards or springy elves, or kingly men) raise the Shire and drive off or kill all of the brigands. I can understand why this was left out of the movies as it would have added at least another half hour to the movie AFTER the destruction of the ring, which just wouldn’t have worked at all. \*\* Another thing that wouldn’t have worked is Saruman adapting the incredibly hoaky, anachronistic name “Sharky” after taking over the Shire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-king-talkback-spoilers/219504.md?page=9)