# Return of the Scopes Monkey Trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174 "2004-11-05T13:39:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/41 "2004-11-09T20:45:02Z")
(joking) God poofed everything into existence because He is that cool! The fossil records are obviously just little easter eggs He put around as a test for the faithful! Haven’t you immoral heathens ever heard of anything called “character development” and “backstory”? (/joking) (Personally, I believe that God created. Doesn’t really matter how. He could have done it in seven 24 hour periods by way of Fiat, or He could have taken His sweet time by way of evolution. It’s supposed to be a reminder of your personal worth, purpose, and responsibility, not something that you bash into the heads of students in a public school biology class. If your kid loses his faith over something this minor, than **maybe it’s better for him to be disillusioned**. You’re doing him a favor, really. Belief in God is much more encompassing than whether or not we were descended from monkeys. ) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/42 "2004-11-09T20:56:02Z")
Here’s the thing, though: Stupidity is not unconstitutional. Should the Cobb County school board have put these stickers on books? No, of course not. The stickers are stupid. Are they unconstitutional? Different question, and the one upon which this case will be decided. It’s a tricky one, too, since the stickers don’t directly endorse any religious belief. Judge Clarence Cooper is a Democratic appointee, for what that’s worth. Don’t envy him having to sort this one out. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/43 "2004-11-10T17:01:14Z")
How about these stickers: > [@](#): > > The sticker states: “This textbook contains material on arithmetic. Arithmetic is a theory, not a fact, regarding how much 1+1 equals. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/44 "2004-11-10T18:59:49Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > How about these stickers: > > > [@](#): > > > > The sticker states: “This textbook contains material on arithmetic. Arithmetic is a theory, not a fact, regarding how much 1+1 equals. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.” Again, that would be really stupid, but not _unconstitutional_. The remedy would be to vote the idiotic school board members out of office. Or move to a more enlightened school district. There was some testimony yesterday which might be important. A Cobb County School Board member testified that the stickers were placed on the books with the specific intent of promoting classroom discussions about creationism. That might be enough for Judge Cooper to hang his hat on if he is inclined to strike down the stickers as an unconstitutional violation of the separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/45 "2004-11-10T19:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > The sticker states: “This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.” That evolution _happens_ is a fact. _Evolution_ is not a theory. The “theory” part of evolutionary biology comes in when we attempt to explain how evolution occurs. Natural selection, genetic drift, inheritance of acquired characters, common descent, &c., are all theories. The statement “this material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered” is not, and should not, be limited to evolutionary theories alone - _all_ theories should be so approached. As such, such a statement should either be applied to all science texts, or not at all. There is no justification for singling out evolutionary theories for critical examination. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/46 "2004-11-10T20:21:41Z")
A summary that I always find useful; “Evolution” and “The Theory Of Evolution” _are not the same thing_. Evolution = **What** happens. Theory Of Evolution = **Why** and **How** we _think_ it happens. In this sense it _is_ possible to think critically of the theory, deny it, rethink it, or even totally disprove it. You can even make up your very own theory of evolution that says it happens because god’s goofing around. But none of this makes the slightest difference to evolution itself. It happened, and will keep on happening no matter whether your theory is right or wrong. Unfortunately this difference will never sink in with creationists. They’re attacking a science in a manner they think it is weakest, and who cares if it’s based on nothing more than word-play and a failure to understand the terminology. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/47 "2004-11-11T04:19:59Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > He said there are three theories as to how life began: > [ol] > [li]Supernatural[/li][li]Extraterrestrial[/li][li]Evolution[/li][/ol] He was wrong, in a nit-picky sort of way. Evolution does not describe how life began, but how it diversified. One of the reasons I used to be a Creationist (years ago) and why many around me still are has to do with the doctrine of Original Sin and how it brought Death (and reproduction, although this is never mentioned outright) into the world. If God used evolution to create man, then how could death be a result of sin? This would make certain quotes from Christ complete fabrications and would throw evangelical Protestant Christianity in a cocked hat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/48 "2004-11-11T04:34:23Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Here’s the thing, though: > > Stupidity is not unconstitutional. > > Should the Cobb County school board have put these stickers on books? No, of course not. The stickers are stupid. > > Are they unconstitutional? Different question, and the one upon which this case will be decided. Assuming the Supreme Court stays consistent, they seemed to have already decided this one in the previously cited case of Edwards v. Aguillar. It’s a more conservative and theocracy-friendly Court now, but that 1987 decision seems to sum it up pretty well; there is no clear secular purpose for this action. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/49 "2004-11-11T04:56:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’d be fine with that sticker if they added a few words. " **Much like the Bible,** evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. " That’ll just piss off everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/50 "2004-11-11T05:14:16Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > That’ll just piss off everybody. Which means it must be the perfect solution, right? -VM ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/51 "2004-11-11T21:44:04Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > Which means it must be the perfect solution, right? > > -VM _sigh_ People need to learn what “theory” and “fact” mean. The Bible is neither. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/52 "2004-11-12T15:14:40Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > How about these stickers: “This textbook contains material on arithmetic. Arithmetic is a theory, not a fact, regarding how much 1+1 equals. **This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.** ” Actually, I think that last sentence (the one I highlighted) ought to be on the front of every textbook on every subject… ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/53 "2004-11-13T00:25:20Z")
> [@FordPrefect](#): > > the doctrine of Original Sin and how it brought Death (and reproduction, although this is never mentioned outright) Actually, in the final version of Genesis, the humans are commanded to “be fruitful, and multiply” _ **before** _ the narrative of The Fall. What comes after the Fall is death and _guilt_ (“and, they realized they were naked”) ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/54 "2004-11-13T03:18:30Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > _sigh_ > > People need to learn what “theory” and “fact” mean. The Bible is neither. No confusion in that regard. The joke was on the fact that a perfect solution is one that pisses everybody off. Much like everyone else who has ever had a science class, I am well aware that intelligent design has no more to do with science than it does with English lit. For those who are interested, Skeptical Inquirer magazine follows this issue closely, including frequent updates on the strategies of the IDers. Recently, they had a big article explaining the disingenuousness of the recent calls to “teach the scientific controversy”–as if there was one. Nonetheless, I do appreciate your assumption that I am an idiot. Underestimating others only makes you vulnerable. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/55 "2004-11-13T06:50:25Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Actually, I think that last sentence (the one I highlighted) ought to be on the front of every textbook on every subject… And on the Bible too. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/56 "2004-11-13T23:21:39Z")
> [@](#): > > This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered. Sounds like students need a lot of guidance. I wonder if there any stickers that say **This material should be approached with a closed mind, skimmed haphazardly, and assumed to be true without any thought.** Or is that just assumed to be the case for sticker-less books? -VM ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/57 "2004-11-15T20:19:37Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, gravity is _also_ a fact **and** a theory. The **fact** of gravity is that heavy objects fall to Earth. The **theory** of gravity (strictly, of _universal gravitation_) **explains** this **fact** since it tells us that _all_ massive objects attract each other, in proportion to their masses and in inverse proportion to the square of their separation. (The explanation is further developed by reference to warped spacetime and Higgs bosons). [nitpick] Higgs bosons don’t have anything to do with gravity. They may have something to do with why particles have _mass_. But General Relativity (Einstein’s theory of warped spacetime as the origin of gravity) works just fine without the Higgs bosons. They’ve never yet been detected, BTW: they’re “just a theory”. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/58 "2004-11-15T20:39:59Z")
> [@FriendRob](#): > > [nitpick] > Higgs bosons don’t have anything to do with gravity. They may have something to do with why particles have _mass_. But General Relativity (Einstein’s theory of warped spacetime as the origin of gravity) works just fine without the Higgs bosons. They’ve never yet been detected, BTW: they’re “just a theory”. [Nitpick’s hijack]A really good book about the “hunt” for the Higgs Boson particle is by Nobel Prize Laureate on physics, Leon Lederman, called “The God Particle” (named because ‘goddamned particle’ might offend.) It’s pretty hilarious and his humor has been compared to Feynman’s.[/Nitpick’s hijack] ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/59 "2004-11-15T21:33:16Z")
All this is the culmination of the very, very strong perceived notion that ‘evolution=atheism’. Unless these two are separated, evolution in the classroom will be fought even more vigorously. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174/60 "2004-11-15T21:36:37Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > _sigh_ > > People need to learn what “theory” and “fact” mean. The Bible is neither. And this perceived attitude, so explicitly said, will only serve to permanently entrench the fundamentalists beliefs, or lack of it, in regards to Evolution. Good job fighting ignorance. Yay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/return-of-the-scopes-monkey-trial/273174.md?page=4)