# Reuters- al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claims "chemical weapons launch" into Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591 "2006-06-29T02:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/41 "2006-06-30T03:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Yes you can. So? I’d like to think that you can tell the difference between the two, but given your history of willful ignorance in this regard I’m not entirely sure that you can. [/QUOTE] Explain to me the difference between the two. I don’t see any. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/42 "2006-06-30T03:43:44Z")
**Dio** , you have, in the past, said that: [ > [@](#): > > the US military is engaged in a campign of genocide ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5726467&postcount=39](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5726467&postcount=39)) It’s not all that surprising that you can’t tell the diference here, either. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/43 "2006-06-30T03:47:39Z")
Just to be clear, I’m not saying attacks on Israeli or American civilians are justified, I’m saying that attacks on Palestinian civilians are equally UNjustified. I’m rejecting the logic that it’s ok to kill babies if you don’t like their parents. Asserting that every Palestinian is equally evil and deserving of death is just fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/44 "2006-06-30T03:49:22Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] **Dio** , you have, in the past, said that: [url=[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5726467&postcount=39](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5726467&postcount=39)] It’s not all that surprising that you can’t tell the diference here, either. [/QUOTE] If you want to be pedantic about it, change “genocide” to “mass murder.” Same fucking difference. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/45 "2006-06-30T03:52:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If you want to be pedantic about it, change “genocide” to “mass murder.” Same fucking difference. [/QUOTE] Big difference, and still wrong. But analagous to the inability to tell the difference between a terrorist and someone who believes in cowboy diplomacy. And you say that attacks on Israel are not justified, but what response do you leave them? What response does any country take, what response _should_ any country take, when their civilians are being targeted and murdered? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/46 "2006-06-30T03:53:19Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Just to be clear, I’m not saying attacks on Israeli or American civilians are justified, I’m saying that attacks on Palestinian civilians are equally UNjustified. I’m rejecting the logic that it’s ok to kill babies if you don’t like their parents. Asserting that every Palestinian is equally evil and deserving of death is just fucking stupid. [/QUOTE] Amazingly, I didn’t. > [@](#): > > And that’s too bad, because within every group lies non-representative members, and now some of them will suffer for the judgment of the rest. I guess you missed that part. Would you please take off your blinders every once in a while and think rather than simply reacting indignantly to stuff that you read? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/47 "2006-06-30T04:02:34Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Big difference, and still wrong. [/quote] Nope. Not wrong at all. If ivading another country without just cause and massacring its citizens by the thousands is not mass murder, what is? > [@](#): > > But analagous to the inability to tell the difference between a terrorist and someone who believes in cowboy diplomacy. The only difference I see is the headgear. > [@](#): > > And you say that attacks on Israel are not justified, but what response do you leave them? What response does any country take, what response _should_ any country take, when their civilians are being targeted and murdered? You think I have the answer to the Mideast problem? Why don’t you just ask me to figure out cold fusion while you’re at it. All I know is that killing innocent people is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/48 "2006-06-30T04:06:41Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You think I have the answer to the Mideast problem? Why don’t you just ask me to figure out cold fusion while you’re at it. All I know is that killing innocent people is wrong. [/QUOTE] But allowing innocent civilians to be killed is right? You can’t have it both ways. If you want to condemn Israel for defending themselves, you have to offer an alternative. This is one of the problems with much of the American Left’s response to Israel. No action except laying down for the slaughter is allowed. Any military reaction is demonized, and yet, every country on earth has a right to retaliate against acts of war. Except Israel, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/49 "2006-06-30T04:17:53Z")
If someone commits a crime, you find out who did it. You don’t just mindlessly retaliate against people who had nothing to do with it. That’s not defensive, it’s just misdirected vengence. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/50 "2006-06-30T04:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If someone commits a crime, you find out who did it. You don’t just mindlessly retaliate against people who had nothing to do with it. That’s not defensive, it’s just misdirected vengence. [/QUOTE] And if the people who commited the crime are being sheltered by state sponsors, and defended by other terrorists? And if, for instance, country A’s military forces attack country B, is country B prohibited from responding if some civilians will be harmed in the retailation? Defensive wars are never justified? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/51 "2006-06-30T04:40:17Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Nope. Not wrong at all. If ivading another country without just cause and massacring its citizens by the thousands is not mass murder, what is? [/QUOTE] On the other hand, if invading that country and losing thousands of civilians (to the attacks from the evil fucks already there) to stop a totalitarian that has killed tens or hundreds of thousand of civilians, while grooming his exponentialy more sadistic son to take over, isn’t some attempt to stop mass murder, I don’t know what is. This reminds me of something an old friend’s BIL once said during the breakup of Yugoslavia. He said as bad as Tito was, at least he kept everyone in line. That’s about the best thing Saddam had going for him. What seems to be a problem is the way he kept control. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/52 "2006-06-30T06:04:08Z")
[http://www.regiments.org/wars/18thcent/39jenkin.htm](http://www.regiments.org/wars/18thcent/39jenkin.htm) Wars have been fought over less. > [@](#): > > Sometimes called “King George’s War” or a prelude to it (since in the New World those two wars were not distinctly separate), the strangely named “War of Jenkins’ Ear” had an improbable and superficial origin, and an unusually tragic ending. In 1731, a Spanish coast guard sloop off Havana boarded the English privateer Robert Jenkins of the Rebecca as he made his his way from Jamaica to London. The Spanish found no evidence of privateering, but repeatedly tortured Jenkins and a Lieutenant Dorce finally sliced off his ear with his cutlass and told him to take it to King George as a token of what they had in mind for the king. Seven years later Jenkins was invited by a certain party of warmongers to display his pickled ear to Parliament, thereby inflaming British and American colonial opinion against Spain. The government of Hugh Walpole duly but reluctantly declared war. The press and later historians could not resist naming the war for its theatrical beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/53 "2006-06-30T06:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If someone commits a crime, you find out who did it. You don’t just mindlessly retaliate against people who had nothing to do with it. That’s not defensive, it’s just misdirected vengence. [/QUOTE] Except if the “criminals” are inside the Gaza Strip, outside Israel’s control. Then, we have some problems: 1. Capability - You can’t carry out a criminal investigation in a place where you can’t physically go, and you can’t arrest people by telephone. 2. Jurisdiction - Israel can’t exactly serve search or arrest warrents in a place it has no jurisdiction. 3. Responsibility - crimes carried out from Palestinian lands, and criminals hiding out there, are the sole responsibility of the Palestinian authoriti=es and no-one else. So you see, you’re asking Israel to carry out a criminal investigation in a place where it cannot do that physically, legally or ethically. Only the Palestinians can do that. However, Israel has the right - the obligation - to demand that the Palestinians do their jobs, and has the right according to international law to make sure that they do it, even by applying force. Because otherwise, what else caqn they do? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/54 "2006-06-30T08:02:01Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Look. The people voted for Hamas. Hamas has long had a policy, written down no less, that they are committed to the destruction of Israel. The elected Palestinian Authority has chosen to look the other way while attacks are occurring on Israel, taking no substantive steps to supress the legitimate terrorists within their own lands. The people, by voting in Hamas, have given their approval to their ideology. They have spoken, and the people who they have chosen to speak for them are terrorists. Whether you like it or not, the people of Gaza are complicit in their own destruction. And that’s too bad, because within every group lies non-representative members, and now some of them will suffer for the judgment of the rest. [/QUOTE] Baloney. That is nowhere near to a fair representation of Hamas policy. At it’s nearest Hamas proposes the end of a seperate the political entity “Israel” in much the same way that East Germany ceased to be. Still lots of East Germans around though. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/55 "2006-06-30T08:13:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Baloney. That is nowhere near to a fair representation of Hamas policy. At it’s nearest Hamas proposes the end of a seperate the political entity “Israel” in much the same way that East Germany ceased to be. Still lots of East Germans around though. [/QUOTE] ahh yes. The infamous Zionist Entity. Also in the official Hamas charter is references to the true and infallible Protocols of Elders giving proof the Jews are out to control the world. > [@](#): > > Article 32: “After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.” Here’s more from the Hamas charter: > [@](#): > > “The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him…” > > “The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. They make war against people’s livelihood, plunder their moneys and threaten their honor … They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream ….” > > “[Jews] control of the world media [and use their] wealth to stir revolutions … They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions.” > > “There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it.” No Jew hatred there. Just ordinary upstanding fellows that want the Zionist Entity, so they can live in peace and harmony with their Jewish neighbors for all eternity. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/56 "2006-06-30T08:30:42Z")
Rune, with all respect, [DNFTT.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356405) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/57 "2006-06-30T08:31:48Z")
That’s kind of unintelligible **Rune**. However, I slapped **asterion** around GD for a while with this same question and I’m not **bricker** - lurking for in wait for the unwary to snare themselves. Poke around for that thread if you are interested. Suffice to say yes to Hamas hostility, no to genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/58 "2006-06-30T08:37:50Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Nope. Don’t buy it. Not a justification for killing innocents. You can make the same bullshit rationalization for attacks on American civilians. Americans elected Bush. Bush is a terrorist. Therefore Americans are responsible for whatever happens to them. You can use the same logic for justifying suicide bombings against Israelis if you really want to. [/QUOTE] There’s plenty of justification for killing innocents. If a major military or geopolitical objective can only be achieved with some _incidental_ “innocent” deaths, then so be it. I don’t mind that some civilians were killed in Germany during WWII. Many Germans were not Nazis, nor even favorable towards the Nazi party, and of course many of them were children, too. But they just had the unfortunate luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. One can’t expect other states to avoid taking necessary action simply because a little bit of blood might be spilled. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/59 "2006-06-30T08:45:32Z")
Also just for general information purposes, genocide is something with a very specific definition. Mass murder, also, has a fairly specific definition. The U.S. cannot be said to be engaging in genocide unless you have evidence we are seeking to bring about the eradication of an ethnic group. You can’t say we are engaging in mass murder unless you can provide evidence that we are trying to engage in organized, systemic, and wide scale _illegal_ killings. Just pointing to a lot of dead bodies in Iraq won’t cut it. You have to show that those dead bodies were people who had been _murdered_. Being killed as collateral damage != being murdered. Murder typically requires intent, and no normal human being holds that any non-military persons who die in an area where a military campaign is being conducted were all “murdered.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591/60 "2006-06-30T08:50:10Z")
Oh, and, **Rune** , my apologies if I came off a bit harsh of junior-moddish. I’ve just seen this troll in action for far too long. For those, interested in Hamas’ actual position, [this is a good place to start.](http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm) > [@](#): > > The Hamas website this week presented the parting video messages of two Hamas suicide terrorists. > [snip] > Each terrorist had a separate message for Jews. This first said, > > “My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children’s thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries.” > > The second terrorist said the following: > > “In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, [and] purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country… This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reuters-al-aqsa-martyrs-brigades-claims-chemical-weapons-launch-into-israel/362591.md?page=4)