Reuters says Bush Open on Gay Marriage. I say they are completely missing his point

It could be interpreted that way. Or it could be interpreted by a bigotted, hatemonger judge – a Scalia, for instance – as meaning that any civil union which stems from a law the impetus behind which was a court case (say, all of them) is now invalid. And all those laws are now struck down.

But even with your rosey interpretation, it would flatly deny the right of any gay person to a government-protected lifetime union. It would forever render gays second class citizens, and it would create a situation where even civil unions have no teeth – a few switched legislature seats and BOOM! the civil unions law could be thrown out. Whereas straight marriages are reliably protected by the government, civil unions would have no such guaranteed political permanency, and no means of acquiring them. And no court would be able to redress this inequity.

And given the way that this putrid FMA is worded it would be IMPOSSIBLE for ANY STATE to constitutionally codify their civil unions system in order to shield it from the vagaries of electoral politics. Instead, civil unions would only exist at the pleasure of whichever party ruled that state, and could be taken away at a moment’s notice – that is not a solid foundation for a longterm relationship.

Which, of course, is exactly what the right wing wants: they want to lull people into thinking that this amendment will only protect the insipid little word “marriage,” and then they’ll work overtime to take over the legislatures of Vermont, and perhaps Massachusetts, depending on how things turn out, and rip away the civil unions laws that are there. The right wing won’t be happy until every gay person in America is thrown out of the town square, bloodied, spit upon and dead, metaphorically or otherwise. That’s what people are voting for when they vote Republican.

Also, Chuck Colson, a disreputable turd of a fanatic, has cajoled the Congress into adding this little gem to one version of the amendment:

“Neither the federal government nor any state shall predicate benefits, privileges, rights, or immunities on the existence, recognition, or presumption of sexual conduct or relationships.”

Which could easily be used as language to strike down every gay rights law in the country. Any judge that decides that the determinative factor of homosexuality is sexual conduct would be Constitutionally required to strike down all municipal, state and federal support for the partners of gay Americans, all anti-discrimination laws, all gay-protecting hate crime laws. It could, in one fell swoop, undo 40 years of societal advancement. Which is, of course, exactly what it is designed to do.

The true scope of the evil of this proposed amendment and those who support it cannot be overstated. It is single most evil law proposed in this country since the Japanese Internment.

61% oppose it according to the only really reputable recent poll on the subject. That’s a disappointing statistic – its hard to believe that so many of my countrymen are backwards, evil, hateful idiots. But there it is, in black and white.

However, the recent polling data says nothing about civil unions. And support for the amendment is pathetically low – only 55%, and transient.

The Balanced Budget Amendment and the exrebale Flag Protection Amendment both had over 80% support, but not enough traction to get passed.

I’m pessimistic. The religious trash hate gay people with a passion not seen in this country since blacks were routinely lynched in the South. I may someday soon be fleeing permanently to Canada, where the weather is cold, but people are equal. I suppose I would be able to warm myself every Fourth of July by burning an American flag.

Good thing you don’t harbor any prejudices.:slight_smile:

I think you made a good point with the poll numbers, though, comparing the Gay Marriage amendment with the Flag Burning amendment. Fortunately, it’s extremely hard to change the constitution.

Yeah, some prejudice…all those good-hearted people who consider me and my ilk to be subhuman perverts who don’t deserve life, let alone any kind of official recognition that I commit to spending my life with someone I love are just misunderstood, not the evil, selfish, prejudiced, bigoted homophobes they seem to be…

I see nothing wrong with harboring “prejudice” as you call it against those who seek nothing less than my total political marginalization. They seek to destroy me and everyone like me. To hell with them and anyone who would even consider defending them.

A sure way to turn people off to your cause is to equate Constitutional constructionists like Scalia and the majority of Americans (who object to gay marriage on religious grounds) with the tiny, tiny minority of folks who wish death on homosexuals.

Actually John Mace brings up an interesting point, albeit somewhat tangentially. IIRC a constructionalist interpretation of the Constitution basically takes the strictest reading of the document and states that only what is flat-out in there should apply as the law of the land. Therefore the right to privacy and so many other rights read into it in recent decades do not exist under such an interpretation. However, my impression of those I have met who carry this line is that many have a deep, almost passionate, respect for the Constitution and often seem to oppose adding stuff to it. So one should not always read a ruling like, say, Bowers v. Hardwick as necessarily stemming from pure bigotry on a judge’s part as at least some would have ruled the same way regardless of the sexual orientation involved. Scalia? No. Scalia has proven himself to be a grade-A pandering straight supremicist.

Priam, you should look into the history of the phrase 'strict constructionalist." It was a term that emerged during the Nixon era, part of his “Southern Strategy” to appeal to racist white voters in the South without himself playing to racism. It was a code phrase, and in my opinion it hasn’t evolved, nor has the jurisprudential logic behind it, much in the intervening years.

John, we’re going to have this argument every time this comes up. It’s not like I can just say “Ah, well…I’ll wait until you good straight folk are ready to give me my rights. It’s okay. Take your time…whenever you’re ready.”

After 32 years or so of this, you start to get the feeling that the majority of people Just. Couldn’t. Give a Shit. and you’re talking to deaf ears every time you lay out the logical reasoning that they should be jumping up to include you in their worldview in an at least neutral position.

I’m tired of people hiding behind their pious “hate the sin, love the sinner” bullshit. I’m tired of people hiding behind their “traditional marriage” bullshit. I’m tired of people hiding behind their giant stinking piles of bullshit on this issue, because it’s not some academic game where I make my prescribed move and then you folks make your prescribed move like we’re replaying the Reykjavik Fischer/Spassky match. That’s a pretty little constitutional principle you have there, but time is RUNNING OUT for us as Shrublet and his Merry Neocons are trying to catch up from behind with that giant constitutional amendment on their backs that will basically shut off the entire issue for as close to forever as makes no nevermind to individual gay people alive today.

You’re looking at a possible gay exodus here. I know I’m seriously going to be looking into Canadian job markets if they ever get this DOMA amendment passed. I can’t see living in a country that considers me to be undeserving of basic human rights. Might as well just throw me into the camps…

Hear hear, JayJay. Well said. I’m smitten.

It seems to be impossible to debate an issue like this without the usual drama queens having their usual hissy fits.

Could a moderator move this thread to the Pit where jayjay and spectrum can rant, Godwinize, and call anyone who disagrees with them “backwards, evil, hateful”, to their heart’s content?

Regards,
Shodan

Do you have another term for those who hatefully and wickedly oppose equality for one of society’s few remaining rampantly-discriminated against minorities?

Oh, wait, I forget, this is Shodan. Defender of all things bigotted and evil.

I also find it funny that you object to the mild invective in this thread, which is nothing compared to what your beloved right wingers say about gays in their books, their pulpits and their speeches. People like Rick Santorum set the tone for this “debate” – God, how f-ing galling, to have trash like Santorum debating whether or not I deserve to be considered an actual, equal human being – not the utterly, completely and totally innocent gay victims of straight discrimination.

Not all things, dear boy.

Not, for instance, ad hominem in GD.

Regards,
Shodan

You’re right, that was over the line. I’m sorry.

Fair enough, and well said.

Regards,
Shodan