# Reverse American exceptionalism: dumber/more violent/etc. than other countries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033 "2011-01-26T08:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/101 "2011-02-04T18:57:56Z")
No no. The fact is as follows: that religious people oppose abortion is no reason to outlaw it. Arguments that hang on the existence of a deity have no merit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/102 "2011-02-04T19:12:35Z")
You don’t have to be religious to believe abortion is murder. Why religious people commonly hold that life begins at conception I have no idea, but it’s not an illogical position. It’s just arbitrary- as any demarcation of where life begins is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/103 "2011-02-04T19:20:56Z")
No, one doesn’t _have_ to be religious to believe such. Nevertheless, such arguments often are based on religious beliefs and I want no part of it. I won’t try to convince people making these arguments otherwise, they can believe what they like. But I won’t accept religious arguments for making something illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/104 "2011-02-04T19:23:43Z")
You missed my point. They’re explicitly _not_ based on religious beliefs. They simply happen to be common to religious people. So is the idea that charity is good, but that doesn’t mean charity is a religious idea. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/105 "2011-02-04T19:33:35Z")
I don’t see it as being coincidental at all. Religious people don’t make the argument that abortion violates certain statutes concerning murder, they talk about God’s Will and souls and stuff. Anyway, you’re free to disagree and I won’t try harder to change your mind, I was just clarifying which fact it was to which I referred. There seemed to be some confusion as to who was calling abortion murder, and I was clearing it up. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/106 "2011-02-04T19:33:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Um… what TV programs are you talking about? The rest of the world, believe it or not, understands that we’re not all Kardashians. Only the ones that matter. They understand that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/107 "2011-02-04T21:18:02Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > But nowhere in Europe, that I know of, anyway, is teaching Creationism in public schools even an issue, let alone done. The UK has its problems: > **[How Many British Schools Are Covertly Teaching Young Earth Creationism "As...](http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2009/01/statistics-re-teaching-creationism-in.html)** > > The recent revelation that about 30% of secondary school teachers want "creationism" taught in schools reminded me of the results of a surve... [http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6069260](http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6069260) > **[Revealed: rise of creationism in UK schools](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/nov/27/controversiesinscience.religion)** > > PR packs spread controversial theory. > **[BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tees | 'Creationism' school opens its doors](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/3088444.stm)** > > A new £20m school teaching controversial biblical creation alongside evolutionary theory, opens on Teesside. [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-creationist-schools-revealed-654296.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-creationist-schools-revealed-654296.html) That’s of course just a sampling; you can find many more examples via Google. Note that some of the listed schools, while not public, do receive state funding and hence have tacit approval. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/108 "2011-02-04T21:40:22Z")
Mostly an [article](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-02-09-creationismUK_N.htm) about the UK (it’s a couple years old as well), but it mentions other European countries too. I guess a lot of people don’t realize that it’s not just Christians who believe in all this Creationism non-sense…Muslims also have a large non-zero percentage of their population who think Creationism is correct. Here is a [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism#Europe) on Creationism: > [@](#): > > Europe > > In Europe, strict creationism is less well accepted, though regular opinion polls are not available. Most people accept that evolution is the most widely accepted scientific theory as taught in most schools. In countries with a Roman Catholic majority, papal acceptance of evolution as worthy of study has essentially ended debate on the matter for many people. > > In the United Kingdom, the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, head of the worldwide Anglican Communion, views the idea of teaching creationism in schools as a mistake.[109] A 2006 poll on the “origin and development of life” asked participants to choose between three different perspectives on the origin of life: 22% chose creationism, 17% opted for intelligent design, 48% selected evolutionary theory, and the rest did not know.[110][111] A subsequent November 2010 Yougov poll on the Origin of Humans found that now 9% opted for creationism, 12% intelligent design, 65% evolutionary theory and 13% didn’t know.[112] > > Exceptionally, in the United Kingdom the Emmanuel Schools Foundation (previously the Vardy Foundation), which runs three government-funded 13 to 19 schools in the north of England (out of several thousand in the country) teaches that creationism and evolution are equally valid “faith positions”. One exam board (OCR) also specifically mentions and deals with creationism in its biology syllabus.[113] However, this deals with it as a historical belief and addresses hostility towards evolution rather than promoting it as an alternative to naturalistic evolution. Mainstream scientific accounts are expressed as fact. In Italy, prime minister Silvio Berlusconi wanted to retire evolution from schools in the middle level; after one week of massive protests, he reversed his opinion.[114] > > There continues to be scattered and possibly mounting efforts on the part of religious fundamentalists throughout Europe to introduce creationism into public education.[115] In response, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has released a draft report entitled The dangers of creationism in education on June 8, 2007,[116] reinforced by a further proposal of banning it in schools dated October 4, 2007.[117] > > Serbia suspended the teaching of evolution for one week in September 2004, under education minister Ljiljana Čolić, only allowing schools to reintroduce evolution into the curriculum if they also taught creationism.[118] “After a deluge of protest from scientists, teachers and opposition parties” says the BBC report, Čolić’s deputy made the statement, “I have come here to confirm Charles Darwin is still alive” and announced that the decision was reversed.[119] Čolić resigned after the government said that she had caused “problems that had started to reflect on the work of the entire government.”[120] > > Poland saw a major controversy over creationism in 2006 when the deputy education minister, Mirosław Orzechowski, denounced evolution as “one of many lies” taught in Polish schools. His superior, Minister of Education Roman Giertych, has stated that the theory of evolution would continue to be taught in Polish schools, “as long as most scientists in our country say that it is the right theory.” Giertych’s father, Member of the European Parliament Maciej Giertych, has opposed the teaching of evolution and has claimed that dinosaurs and humans co-existed.[121] It’s got an interesting graph ([here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Views_on_Evolution.svg)), but the thing I’m not sure about is how frequently Europeans are actually polled on this, and how they break down those polls. Still, I’d say that overall it’s true that more Europeans (aside from Turkey) believe in Evolution than Creationism than Americans do (20% vs 40%). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/109 "2011-02-05T02:41:28Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > But nowhere in Europe, that I know of, anyway, is teaching Creationism in public schools even an issue, let alone done. That brings up a good point. When people talk about the US, they are including the whole 50 states (the South, the Bible Belt, etc.). When they talk about Europe, they generally ignore Poland, Armenia, Romania, Greece, Turkey, etc. Where the US has the South, they have the East. I suspect that if you compared the US to **actual** as opposed to **select** Europe, in terms of same sex partnerships, education, etc. the two regions are probably about equal. But it’s certainly not fair to compare Alabama to France. Georgia to Georgia – that’s probably more even. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/110 "2011-02-05T03:04:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Actually, it was mostly the Chinese and the Irish. Most of the Irish-Americans stayed on and they or their children became citizens and were gradually integrated into American society. Its not really accurate to call them Irish as if they were foreigners. The Chinese of course suffered from terrible discrimnation. It would be amusing to see all those opponents of Chinese and other Asian immigration to see all those “Asiatics” in America to-day. As to the abortion question my views are not due to only religious reasons. The Bible’s main indication is a Mosaic law requiring the payment of fines for the death of a fetus. Nonetheless I see that without religious consideration the simple fact that once an egg and sperm are united, it is a straight road to development and birth. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/111 "2011-02-05T06:24:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That brings up a good point. When people talk about the US, they are including the whole 50 states (the South, the Bible Belt, etc.). When they talk about Europe, they generally ignore Poland, Armenia, Romania, Greece, Turkey, etc. Where the US has the South, they have the East. I suspect that if you compared the US to **actual** as opposed to **select** Europe, in terms of same sex partnerships, education, etc. the two regions are probably about equal. > > But it’s certainly not fair to compare Alabama to France. Georgia to Georgia – that’s probably more even. In the case of creationism, the Wiki article we’ve been batting back and forth does mention Turkey, Poland, and Greece. Poland and Greece do much better than the US for acceptance of evolution, Turkey does worse. Bulgaria, Croatia, and Latvia also appear, all do better than the US. The US state of Georgia has a median income of $50,861 and would be the 28th largest economy in the world if it was a nation. The country ranks 121st in the world for GDP, GDP per capita is $4800 or so, is still making the transition out of a planned economy under an effective dictatorship, and every so often Russia invades. If the country of Georgia is somewhat benighted, IMO it at least has an excuse. Much fairer to compare Alabama to France. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/112 "2011-02-05T07:39:12Z")
But look at it from a population standpoint. In the EU alone there are over 500 million citizens (and this doesn’t count non-EU countries like Turkey, which has 74 million right there…a quick [Google](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe) search says that the total population of Europe is closer to 800 million…nearly 3 times that of the US). The US has a total population of just over 300 million. 20 percent of 500 million (just taking the EU alone) is still 100 million, while 40 percent of 300 million is only 120 million. So, even if the numbers are accurate, and not counting non-EU European countries, in absolute terms of how many people believe the non-sense you are talking a relatively small difference. And this assumes that the equal polling methodology, questions, demographics polled and error bars used. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/113 "2011-02-05T09:03:49Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No no. The fact is as follows: that religious people oppose abortion is no reason to outlaw it. Arguments that hang on the existence of a deity have no merit. Do you really not comprehend that anything that says “You should do this” is an opinion, not a fact? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/114 "2011-02-05T17:27:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Do you really not comprehend that anything that says “You should do this” is an opinion, not a fact? This has nothing at all to do with my making it clear to someone else that it wasn’t me who stated “abortion is murder.” Someone asked if that was the fact to which I referred, and I said it was not. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033/115 "2011-02-05T17:58:25Z")
I think Americans lead the world’s democracies - at least - in contempt for the helpless and unfortunate. I’d say it’s because our myths matter more to some of us than our realities, and we can be cruel in the extreme when anyone challenges those myths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reverse-american-exceptionalism-dumber-more-violent-etc-than-other-countries/569033.md?page=5)