# Review finds no mention of Christ in ancient texts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003 "2014-09-30T19:59:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/121 "2014-10-01T15:51:27Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The existence of a historical Jesus of Nazareth does not require that any particular alleged miracle, or any miracle whatsoever, actually occurred. If the more spectacular bits of the story are later accretions, what’s left is the account of a local rabble-rouser whose failure to make it into surviving secular histories is not at all surprising. Right, and I agree. My reply that you quoted was defending my statement: “BUT… this work does invalidate the claims made by Christians, because if those stories in the Gospels were true, then you would expect to find something written about him contemporaneously.” ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/122 "2014-10-01T15:58:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To dismiss all these sources, you have to believe that all of these authors would all decide to not only lie but also to all agree to tell the same lie despite the fact that many of them were in bitter disagreements with others. > > You also have to accept the fact that no ancient source chose to expose this massive conspiracy. The Jesus-never-existed position doesn’t depend on anyone lying. The only accounts we have are from people who lived long enough after the supposed events, that they could all be true believers in this legend that that was circulating in their peer group. And the legend possibly could have arisen without being based on an actual person. My own thought is that the stories probably were based on a real failed apocalyptic prophet, whose followers told stories that grew over time. What we know is that the stories grew over time, what we don’t know is what the true core actually consisted of. But it really doesn’t matter, except for idle curiosity. It’s clear that the stories were added on over the years, and they are at a minimum, greatly embellished. So what if there was or wasn’t a Yeshua that it all was based on? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/123 "2014-10-01T16:23:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I think the authors point was, if, you had someone who regularly healed leprecy, blindness and other diseases, raised people from the dead and himself returned from the dead, and, finally, floated up to the heavens, that such extraordinary events would be recorded somewhere by someone You’re making the same error as the author. The person you describe is not a historical figure. The person you are describing is a legendary figure (indeed, a mythological figure). That is not in dispute. The question is whether these stories accreted to a real individual, a Jew from Palestine who walked the earth in the early first century AD: the historical Jesus. The existence of a religious figure called Jesus who made extraordinary claims doesn’t make those claims true. Think of a modern analogy. Does George Bush exist? Does Barack Obama? Good. We agree. Now, are all of their claims factual because they exists? Of course not. Not even close. Same with Jesus. The only difference is, our evidence for Jesus is less direct, and our evidence for his claims is less direct. But you must separate the PERSON from the CLAIMS about the person. Not the same. Based on the evidence, I think Jesus existed. I dispute that Jesus ever caused the dead to become not dead (himself or anyone else), because I’ve read similar claims from other ancient authors. I don’t really care whether they were sleight of hand, misunderstandings, misreportings, or made up from whole cloth: it’s an entirely separate question from whether the historical Jesus ever existed. Why is this notion so difficult for you and for Paulkovich? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/124 "2014-10-01T16:27:51Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The Jesus-never-existed position doesn’t depend on anyone lying. The only accounts we have are from people who lived long enough after the supposed events, that they could all be true believers in this legend that that was circulating in their peer group. And the legend possibly could have arisen without being based on an actual person. Except Paul. Paul knew people that had known Jesus. I agree that’s not the kind of evidence that would convict a guy in criminal court, but I think it more likely than not, if we accept the historicity of Saul/Paul, and that he talked to people who had actually known that Jeshua guy, that the Jeshua guy actually lived. And the whole Lazarus thing - first, it’s only in John, which is the least dependable of the gospels (written the latest, and most unlike the other three, therefore probably has the most Paul Bunyan stories). Second, lots of miracle workers probably really pulled that off back then. We still have people ‘rise from the dead’ [today](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2014/02/28/miss-man-declared-dead-wakes-up-in-body-bag/) ([story 2](http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/08/06/dead-man-awakens-before-autopsy-shocks-doctors-by-asking-for-glass-water/)) ([story 3](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47397758/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/dead-man-wakes-funeral-becomes-celebration/#.VCwqtxagbB0)). It probably happened more often before funeral workers drained blood as part of the enbalming process. If you want to dispute that Jesus existed, do you also dispute that all the other end-of-days Jewish preachers in first century Judea existed? Or just that one guy? And if it’s just that one guy, why? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/125 "2014-10-01T17:37:52Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I believe you are mistaken > [http://apollinaris.livejournal.com/5354.html](http://apollinaris.livejournal.com/5354.html) You are correct; I was not aware that the Babylonian diaries had been definitively translated to include unambiguous references to Alexander. That is a footnote, however, because the larger point stands: the surviving Babylonian astronomical diaries were not fully translated and published until the 1990s. Did anybody in the decades prior to that doubt the existence of Alexander the Great? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/126 "2014-10-01T18:04:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus Fucking Christ folks, have you never heard that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? [sagan] There is a fire-breathing dragon the size of a largish elephant living in my kitchen. It spits fire once every fifteen minutes and never leaves. I can’t show you a picture of it because it is invisible. I can walk freely around the kitchen despite its presence because it is intangible. It doesn’t fall through the floor despite its intangibility because it has the power of levitation. Its fire has not burned the apartment building down because it is cold fire, and as intangible as the dragon itself. In short there is no evidence of this invisible intangible levitating cold-fire-breathing dragon, but I expect you to believe me anyway. [/sagan] ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/127 "2014-10-01T23:18:02Z")
I happen to think there are good reasons to doubt Jesus’s existence but Paulkovitch’s article doesn’t give any of those reasons. To be sure–there are some writers contemporary to Jesus who, from the writings we do have, we can be mildly surprised they don’t mention him. But there’s no strong case to be made along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/128 "2014-10-02T00:24:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [sagan] > There is a fire-breathing dragon the size of a largish elephant living in my kitchen. It spits fire once every fifteen minutes and never leaves. I can’t show you a picture of it because it is invisible. I can walk freely around the kitchen despite its presence because it is intangible. It doesn’t fall through the floor despite its intangibility because it has the power of levitation. Its fire has not burned the apartment building down because it is cold fire, and as intangible as the dragon itself. In short there is no evidence of this invisible intangible levitating cold-fire-breathing dragon, but I expect you to believe me anyway. > [/sagan] Bob told me his grandpa shot five-hundred Nazi’s in WWII. Sounds like balls to me - I don’t think he even _had_ a grandpa. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/129 "2014-10-02T06:49:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > no, i’m saying that second hand accounts of a traveling charlatan are much more suspect than second hand accounts of political figures or generals or similar individuals I can’t see why that follows. I don’t know whether the early 1900s conman George Parker actually sold the Brooklyn Bridge. But based on secondhand accounts, I’m comfortable saying he existed. I concede that the evidence of Jesus’ existence (or any ancient’s existence) isn’t as strong, but I’m highly dubious about the contention that Paul would successfully made up a Messiah out of whole cloth and claim that he was crucified a couple of decades ago. (Incidentally, Jesus mythicists typically claim that Paul _didn’t_ in fact believe that, but that is tangential to the OP’s discussion topic.) > [@astorian](#): > > Back to one of the original questions: who IS Michael Paulkovich? > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well, first I’d wonder what Michael Paulkovich’s credentials are. It’s hard to believe that someone without an ax to grind would publish his paper at a website with a title like [jesusneverexisted.com](http://jesusneverexisted.com). > > The author’s book is at [nomeekmessiah.com](http://nomeekmessiah.com). It includes this bio: > [INDENT]Michael Paulkovich is a freelance writer and inventor, Contributing Editor for The American Rationalist, Columnist for American Atheist Magazine and Contributor for Free Inquiry and other journals. [/INDENT] This isn’t an academic work and it hasn’t undergone peer review. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/130 "2014-10-02T13:45:25Z")
The claim in the review is an absurdity. I have no idea whether a historical Jesus existed or not - but I have no reason to doubt that the myth was based on a real person. The notion that lack of contemporary mention is proof of his non-existence is, however, easily shown to be mistaken - we have a similar tiny amount of proof of the existence of Pontius Pilate, who was a much more significant person in the Roman world than Jesus in their own lifetimes. > **[Pontius Pilate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate)** > > Pontius Pilate\[b\] (Latin: Pontius Pilatus; Greek: Πόντιος Πιλᾶτος, romanized: Póntios Pilátos) was the fifth governor of the Roman province of Judaea, serving under Emperor Tiberius from 26/27 to 36/37 AD. He is best known for being the official who presided over the trial of Jesus and ultimately ordered his crucifixion. Pilate's importance in Christianity is underscored by his prominent place in both the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. Because the gospels portray Pilate as reluctant to execute J... Just as with Jesus, the only mentions of Pilate are in brief mentions in the works of such authors as Tacitus and Josephus. … until 1961, when an actual inscription with his name and title on it was found. > **[Pilate stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone)** > > The Pilate stone is a damaged block (82 cm x 65 cm) of carved limestone with a partially intact inscription attributed to Pontius Pilate, a prefect of the Roman province of Judaea from AD 26 to 36. It was discovered at the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima in 1961. > The limestone block was discovered in June 1961 by Italian archaeologist Maria Teresa Fortuna Canivet during a campaign led by Dr. Antonio Frova while excavating in the area of an ancient theatre built by decree of Herod the G... > [@](#): > > The Pilate Stone is the name given to a damaged block (82 cm x 65 cm) of carved limestone with a partially intact inscription attributed to, and mentioning, Pontius Pilate; a Prefect of the Roman-controlled province of Judaea from 26–36 AD. It was discovered in the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima, in 1961. The artifact is particularly significant because it is the only widely accepted[not in citation given] archaeological find, to date, of an authentic 1st-century Roman inscription mentioning the name “Pontius Pilatus”. It is contemporary to Pilate’s lifetime, and accords with what is known of his reported career.[2][3] In effect, the writing constitutes the earliest surviving record and only contemporaneous evidence for the historical existence of this person; otherwise known only from the New Testament and brief mentions in retrospective Roman histories, which have themselves survived only in still-later copies. The point ought to be clear: if a high Roman official can leave such a lack of evidence behind during his own lifetime, such that a single inscription found fifty years ago is the only actual proof he ever existed, it is not surprising that a religious rabble-rouser and executed criminal from exactly the same time and place leaves such a small evidentiary “footprint”. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/131 "2014-10-02T16:49:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > … > Well, I suppose the story of the wise men following a fixed star to the infant Jesus is the sort of thing that someone might have noticed, … I dunno much about the time period, but it seems that all through history there were scads of people watching the skies very closely. Far more than would have known about … Bethlehem, for example. I gotta assume there aren’t mass recordings of a “Jesus star” – some star popped up and hung out over the middle east, or that would be all the rage. I suppose, though. that the lack of observations refutes just the one miracle, and a pre-birth one at that. Perhaps Jesus wasn’t really trying yet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/132 "2014-10-02T17:34:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I dunno much about the time period, but it seems that all through history there were scads of people watching the skies very closely. Far more than would have known about … Bethlehem, for example. > > I gotta assume there aren’t mass recordings of a “Jesus star” – some star popped up and hung out over the middle east, or that would be all the rage. > > I suppose, though. that the lack of observations refutes just the one miracle, and a pre-birth one at that. Perhaps Jesus wasn’t really trying yet. 🙂 As **Chronos** pointed out in post 32, though, my assumption doesn’t actually hold up. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/133 "2014-10-02T18:20:11Z")
There are no contemporary mention of Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad and a lot of other religious figures. A lot of other important non-religious figures also lack contemporary mention, such as Pythagoras. Also: “combed 126 texts written during or shortly after the time Jesus” – like other scholars hadn’t done this a thousand times before. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/134 "2014-10-02T18:36:30Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There are no contemporary mention of Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad and a lot of other religious figures. A lot of other important non-religious figures also lack contemporary mention, such as Pythagoras. Also: “combed 126 texts written during or shortly after the time Jesus” – like other scholars hadn’t done this a thousand times before. I’m pretty sure that Muhammad’s book is pretty solid contemporary evidence of his existence. Again, you may doubt what the author says about himself, and about his religion, but that’s a separate matter. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/135 "2014-10-02T18:36:03Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There are no contemporary mention of Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad and a lot of other religious figures. Muhammad: [QUOTE=some guy writing in 637 CE] [… and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) [the sons of] Emesa [i.e., Ḥimṣ)], and many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Muḥammad and a great number of people were killed and captives [were taken] from Galilee as far as Bēth […] and those Arabs pitched camp beside [Damascus?] […] **and we saw everywhe[re…] and o[l]ive oil which they brought and them.** And on the t[wenty six]th of May went S[ac[ella]rius]… cattle […] […] from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them […] and on the tenth [of August] the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus […] many [people] some 10,000. And at the turn [of the ye]ar the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year n[ine hundred and forty-]seven there gathered in Gabitha […] the Romans and great many people were ki[lled of] [the R]omans, [s]ome fifty thousand […]](http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html) [/quote] emphasis added, as the phrase ‘and we saw’ is a big hairy deal. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/136 "2014-10-02T18:39:28Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m pretty sure that Muhammad’s book is pretty solid contemporary evidence of his existence. Again, you may doubt what the author says about himself, and about his religion, but that’s a separate matter. He wrote, therefore he was. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/137 "2014-10-02T18:43:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There are no contemporary mention of Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad and a lot of other religious figures. We know Muhammad existed because we have his book. On the other hand, historians think that Abraham and Moses were fictional. So where does that leave your point? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/138 "2014-10-02T18:45:33Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m pretty sure that Muhammad’s book is pretty solid contemporary evidence of his existence. Again, you may doubt what the author says about himself, and about his religion, but that’s a separate matter. You mean the Koran? The same way the New Testament is evidence of Jesus’ existence? Anyway, it wasn’t his book. Allegedly he was illiterate, the book was only written some decades after his supposed death. Perhaps based on some notes which had existed while he was supposedly alive. Who knows. There’s a Wiki article on the subject: [Historicity of Muhammad - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/139 "2014-10-02T18:47:05Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > We know Muhammad existed because we have his book. Eh, the book was written by some other guy of the same name, just like Homer. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003/140 "2014-10-02T18:48:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > He wrote, therefore he was. 🙂 He didn’t write therefore he was not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/review-finds-no-mention-of-christ-in-ancient-texts/700003.md?page=8)