# Revisiting Gitmo (Cuba, detention) -- Nice Place **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983 "2004-03-07T16:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/1 "2004-03-07T16:23:19Z")
[I’m just wondering if I can make a reservation.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1163435,00.html) Sounds like a great place to grow as a person. > [@](#): > > Asadullah is even more sure of this. **“Americans are great people, better than anyone else,” he said, when found at his elder brother’s tiny fruit and nut shop in a muddy backstreet of Kabul. "Americans are polite and friendly when you speak to them. They are not rude like Afghans. If I could be anywhere, I would be in America. I would like to be a doctor, an engineer \_ or an American soldier."** > > This might seem to jar with the prevailing opinion of Guantanamo among human rights groups. An American jail on foreign soil, Guantanamo was designed, according to Amnesty International, to deny prisoners “many of their most basic rights”, which in America would include special provision for the “speedy trial” of juveniles. But, seized in the remotest wilds of violent Afghanistan, the boys knew practically nothing of their rights, and expected less. Those that alleged the US would keep these people forever, torture them, or kill them, summarized mainly with comparisons to Nazis and such, I await apologies. I’ll keep waiting. One great thing about being a radical is never having to examine the facts to determine your outlook. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/2 "2004-03-07T16:37:46Z")
Did I miss the part of the article where his parents said, “Thank you, Americans, for stealing, blindfolding, imprisoning and interrogating our son! Bless you for not letting his immediate family know where he was! Indoctrination into your way of thinking was a wonderful idea that never would have occured to us, and just because we are his parents doesn’t mean we don’t think the decision wasn’t yours to make. Let us know when you want to steal our children again, please! Or better yet, keep it a surprise, because it’s better that way for all concerned.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/3 "2004-03-07T16:52:56Z")
From the link: > [@](#): > > Naqibullah was interrogated every day at Bagram. “They kept asking me, ‘Do you know the Taliban? Do you know al-Qaida? Have you given them shelter? Have you given them food?’,” he said. > > “I told them, ‘I don’t know these people, and I am too young to give anything to anyone without my father’s authority’.” After two weeks, Naqibullah said, he was asked whether he had any objection to being taken to “another place”. > > “I said, ‘What can I do? You will take me wherever you want to’.” That night, bound, blindfolded and fitted into orange overalls, he was loaded on to a cargo plane and flown non-stop to Cuba. and > [@](#): > > Despite their gentle treatment, the boys were homesick. “I was very sad because I missed my family so much,” said Asadullah. “I was always asking, ‘When can I go home? What day? What month?’ They said, ‘You’ll go home soon’, but they never said when.” > > Meanwhile, the boys’ parents were suffering agonies. In Khoja Angur, Asadullah’s village, the boy’s mother describes how she cried “every night thinking about my son.” IMO, the OP is one who needs to apologize here, a) for trying to paint anyone who has objected to the indefinite imprisonment of the alleged “enemy combatants” at Guantanamo as a foaming-at-the-mouth radical; and b) for misrepresenting the content of the article to anyone who might not bother follow the link. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/4 "2004-03-07T17:06:48Z")
Beagle, since you see it as such a great place **to grow as a person** , may I suggest you give yourself up at Guatanamo for indefinite detention? If you don’t want Guatanamo because you have some preference for an other and similar great touristic and educational location, no big problem for me to get arrangements for your transfer right into its dogcells. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/5 "2004-03-07T19:00:39Z")
I’m afraid I don’t get the point here, aside from the fact that the US can eventually turn around and play nice with 12 year olds who get caught up in sweeps for Al- Qaida and Taliban by happening to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, even if it means keeping them from their family for half a year. Without bothering to inform them about their son’s fate, by the way. It’s notable that > [@](#): > > Naqibullah’s first 10 days in Guantanamo were the worst of his life, he said. He was put in a tiny cell with a single slit-window as his interrogation continued. Then everything changed. Also notable is that they were kept from the general population, as it were. > [@](#): > > The boys never spoke to Guantanamo’s other prisoners - “lots of Arabs and Afghans,” according Naqibullah. > [@Beagle](#): > > One great thing about being a radical is never having to examine the facts to determine your outlook. Something about people who live in glass houses come to mind upon reading this one, Beagle. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/6 "2004-03-07T19:12:00Z")
Republican porn. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/7 "2004-03-07T19:26:47Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > Those that alleged the US would keep these people forever, torture them, or kill them, summarized mainly with comparisons to Nazis and such, I await apologies. > > I’ll keep waiting. One great thing about being a radical is never having to examine the facts to determine your outlook. Ooookay. Positing that indefinite detention of individuals who were charged with no crime makes you a _radical_? Bring on the f\*\*\*ing revolution, then, I say! Apparently one of the great things about being a reactionary is that facts aren’t really important to _you_, either. There are still prisoners at Gitmo. Until they are all released (or given a trial, one of those minor niceties that you don’t seem to consider important) you can’t bitch about us alleging that they may be held forever. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/8 "2004-03-07T19:29:46Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Ooookay. Positing that indefinite detention of individuals who were charged with no crime makes you a _radical_? That should read “Positing that indefinite detention of individuals who were charged with no crime is wrong makes you a radical?” Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/9 "2004-03-07T19:40:09Z")
Have you read that article, **Beagle** , because it’s a complete condemnation of what the US did to those kids and their families ? "They were also unaware that the American defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, had described Guantanamo’s inmates as “hard-core, well-trained terrorists” and “among the most dangerous, best-trained, vicious killers on the face of the Earth.” Naqibullah and Asadullah were arrested one night in November 2002, in Musawal village, Paktia province, by around 30 American special forces soldiers. More than 30 local men were also arrested, and remain in Guantanamo. Naqibullah, the local imam’s son, said he stumbled into the raid while cycling from a friend’s house. Asadullah is from a village three days’ walk away, in neighbouring Logar province, but was working for a local farmer along with several men who were also arrested. It seems likely the Americans were looking for a local commander, Mansoor Rah man Saiful, who had fought against the Taliban for years, but joined the radical Islamists when America attacked Afghanistan. If so, they were unsuccessful: Mr Saiful is still at large. " \ "Despite their gentle treatment, the boys were homesick. “I was very sad because I missed my family so much,” said Asadullah. “I was always asking, ‘When can I go home? What day? What month?’ They said, ‘You’ll go home soon’, but they never said when.” Meanwhile, the boys’ parents were suffering agonies. In Khoja Angur, Asadullah’s village, the boy’s mother describes how she cried “every night thinking about my son.” Covered entirely by a sheet of turquoise silk, she speaks through a male relative while the Guardian’s translator stares respectfully at his feet. So conservative is Asadullah’s society that his mother’s name is a family secret. “I prayed to God, I asked, ‘Where is my son?’,” she continued. “He was just a boy, much too young to disappear on his own.” **Asadullah was gone for seven months before his parents discovered his whereabouts.** For the first two months, his uncles and cousins were afraid to tell his elderly father, Abdul Rahman, that he was missing, believing the shock might kill him. Almost the entire male population of Khoja Angur, a fortified mud-village, snowbound and ringed by icy peaks, downed tools and went searching for the boy. “They went to Bagram, but the Americans said they didn’t know anything about him,” said Abdul Rahman, white-bearded and heavy-breathing. **"They went to Logar and Gardez, even to Kandahar, but no one knew about him."** Taking 12-year old kids right across the world without their parents permission – or even knowledge - on the basis of no evidence whatsoever and detaining them for nearly two years without any rights at all; this is good for the US ? Jesus, the kid was cycling to his friends house, for crissakes - you got kids, **Beagle** , do you haven’t, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/10 "2004-03-07T20:12:43Z")
There are two seperate issues: 1. The condidtions under which the prisoners are kept 2. Whether they should be prisoners or not. The article addresses one small aspect of #1. Small, since the treatment of this kid was not typical of what the adults received. And the fact that life at Gitmo for an adoloscent might be better, in some respects, than the mean streats of war-torn Afghanistan shouldn’t be much of a surprise. Yeah, some posters on this board have made baseless claims of torture and plans by the US to execute most of the prisoners. It’s unclear that this boy’s experience supports or disproves any of those claims. They were baseless when they were made, and they remain baseless after this article. ---
**Author:** ![jymjim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/45deac/32.png) [@jymjim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jymjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/11 "2004-03-07T20:23:36Z")
One Guardian article featuring someone _not_ saying the place is a complete hell hole does not make it so. I’m sure anyone of us could post up links to many articles containing quotes from prisoners of…whatever they are, saying quite the opposite to this one. Personally i’m assuming that the OP is practicing some subtle trolling skillz here 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/12 "2004-03-07T21:19:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did I miss the part of the article where his parents said, “Thank you, Americans, for stealing, blindfolding, imprisoning and interrogating our son! Bless you for not letting his immediate family know where he was! Indoctrination into your way of thinking was a wonderful idea that never would have occured to us, and just because we are his parents doesn’t mean we don’t think the decision wasn’t yours to make. Let us know when you want to steal our children again, please! Or better yet, keep it a surprise, because it’s better that way for all concerned.” > :rolleyes: Well, the Afghans should be getting used to it. It was, after all, standard Soviet procedure during the _last_ occupation. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/13 "2004-03-07T21:24:01Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Well, the Afghans should be getting used to it. It was, after all, standard Soviet procedure during the _last_ occupation. - was of course written by me, Spiny Norman, and not my considerably better half, Shayna. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/14 "2004-03-07T21:28:15Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Well, the Afghans should be getting used to it. It was, after all, standard Soviet procedure during the _last_ occupation. “Three cheers for America! It’s not actually any worse than Soviet Russia!” ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/15 "2004-03-07T22:32:31Z")
> [@](#): > > This might seem to jar with the prevailing opinion of Guantanamo among human rights groups. An American jail on foreign soil, Guantanamo was designed, according to Amnesty International, to deny prisoners “many of their most basic rights”, which in America would include special provision for the “speedy trial” of juveniles. But, seized in the remotest wilds of violent Afghanistan, the boys knew practically nothing of their rights, and expected less. Ah, benevolent tyranny eh? Just because you are fed, and your immediate needs are met, deprival of parents, home, culture really do not compensate. I wonder if the US has concerns for the boys future welfare, since their abduction of him led to the boys family borrowing heavily to pay to support those out looking for the boy. Anyway, we can feel all safe and secure, in the knowledge that 12 year old cyclists are not about to blow us all up!! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/16 "2004-03-07T23:35:19Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > Have you read that article, **Beagle** I believe after he got to the fragment in the OP, he had to stop himself and get a Kleenex… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/17 "2004-03-08T01:34:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > There are two seperate issues: > > 1. The condidtions under which the prisoners are kept > > 2. Whether they should be prisoners or not. > > The article addresses one small aspect of #1. Small, since the treatment of this kid was not typical of what the adults received. And the fact that life at Gitmo for an adoloscent might be better, in some respects, than the mean streats of war-torn Afghanistan shouldn’t be much of a surprise. > > Yeah, some posters on this board have made baseless claims of torture and plans by the US to execute most of the prisoners. It’s unclear that this boy’s experience supports or disproves any of those claims. They were baseless when they were made, and they remain baseless after this article. In fact there is a third and seperate issue. Within the next few months the US Supreme Court is going to declare the detentions unlawful, & consequently fit the facts neatly into the definition of war crime: unlawful acts, carried on over time, matter of policy & etc. The issue is how to deal with the war criminals, the detaining power. Is the US military an honourable one and is US a society of laws? Or in the alternative does the US retain soldiers in name only, but in truth mere uniformed mafias? What punishment is appropriate for these war crimes? Summary execution and anonymous burial in a yellow pit marked “coward”? Dishonourable dischare and long periods imprisonment with hard labour. Or more likely, the US will simply publically surrender the notion of honorable military service and issue fedoras and tommyguns as uniform. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/18 "2004-03-08T06:38:49Z")
> [@jymjim](#): > > I’m sure anyone of us could post up links to many articles containing quotes from prisoners of…whatever they are, saying quite the opposite to this one. Okay, then, please do. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/19 "2004-03-08T07:33:10Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > …Those that alleged the US would keep these people forever, torture them, or kill them, summarized mainly with comparisons to Nazis and such, I await apologies. > > I’ll keep waiting. One great thing about being a radical is never having to examine the facts to determine your outlook. And wait you shall. The ‘loyal’ opposition is in full-blown ‘change-the-subject’ mode, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983/20 "2004-03-08T10:53:24Z")
I read the print article on Saturday, and was indeed impressed. Finally, they have the right idea, it seems; _educating_ their perceived enemies **in their own culture** in order to show that extremist dogma is itself a perversion of Islam and runs counter to the traditions of one’s _own people_. Yes, it is a far more agreeable place to be than their original captivity, indeed perhaps better than the rest of the US penal system. **But a humane prison is still a prison.** Due process is still being utterly ignored. They have still not received a trial. And they may still be executed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-gitmo-cuba-detention-nice-place/232983.md?page=2)