Revisiting Gitmo (Cuba, detention) -- Nice Place

Great Debates
121

For the third time, the problem is there is no effort being made to determine their status. If they are legitimate POWs, then trying them as criminals would be out of bounds. Trying them for war crimes would still be allowed, it was done against German and Japanese officers post-WWII. If they are terrorists and not legitimate military combatants, they could be tried for civil crimes. Official US policy is that, from the horses mouth

The problem is that this that it ignores Geneva Convention (III) Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War; August 12, 1949 Article 5:

by simply never convening such a tribunal. A presidential decision is not a tribunal, yet that is where the situation has stood in limbo since their capture two and a half years ago.

122

…ummm, could you be a little bit more specific with your cite? I just spent 1/2 an hour going through your links, the closest that I could find was this from Rumsfeld:

“They include not only rank and file soldiers who took up arms against the coalition in Afghanistan but they include senior al Qaida and Taliban operatives, including some who may have been linked to past and potential attacks against the United States, and other who continue to express commitment to kill Americans if released.”

http://www.pentagon.gov/transcripts/2004/tr20040213-0445.html

…but I said-its a very “non-specific” statement, which I could hardly call evidence. What part of the DOD site did you want me to look at?

123

It is you who needs to do better. You have said things which are not true and I have pointed it out repeteadly and you just continue to ignore the facts. You are basing your arguments on lies. Whech pretty much invalidates them.

I am uneducated on the legalities of this bizarre little corner of human affairs? Huh? Could you please stop the blabbering and handwaving and actually address the arguments being put to you?

The people in Gitmo are accused of trying to kill people. That is a crime since the first days of laws. This is not a new thing. Saying “this is very complicated and you don’t understand it” is not an answer I can accept. My concept of human rights allows for no exceptions. Once you say human rights and due process are only for good people the concept is meaningless. And the text of the Constitution of the USA does not make any exceptions either.

Facts: The detainees at Guantanamo are accused of crimes and they are not being afforded due process of law. I provided links and you just have to read the press. Now tell me why these assertions are wrong but stop posting inane generalities and ignoring the core questions. I don’t even know why I bother because you are the only one here who thinks like that and you have not convinced anyone else and it does not look like you will.

124

I am not attempting to convince, I am writing to inform.

In any case, please advise me of which grand jury has indicted people in Cuba for various crimes.

125

:rolleyes:

126

Of course your right. They have not been accused or indicted for a crime by any sort of official body. All we have is a lot of loose talk.

One of the fellows held down there seems to have been one of OBL’s bodyguards. What crime do you think he could be accused of? I would suspect none at all.

Would you propose releasing such a person? The fighting is still going on.

So he is held without being accused and will be until the end of hostilities.

Seems fairly straightforward to me.

127

In which case he should be set free. A civilized country imprisons people for crimes they have committed, not on the suspicion that they may commit a crime.

Yes

That is meaningless. The fight will always go on until then of humanity. The fight against burglars also goes on. That does not give the state the right to just lock up without any justification or process anyone who it feels might commit a burglary in the future

Yep. I know it seems pretty straightforward to you. And that is what I find frightening. That people like you support the destruction of a civilization which has taken centuries to build. That you would take us back to a time when the state could imprison people without due process of law. In western countries we are talking hundreds of years of civilization and you feel it is ok to destroy that. You feel it is ok to do what Stalin or Mao did. An enemy of the state can be imprisoned with no process. Yes, I find that frightening and so does most of the population of the civilized world. What you propose is pretty much on the same level of what Al Qaeda wants in which case you can duke it out yourselves but don’t ask for my support. I want a society where people are entitled to human rights and due process of law. I reject the society you propose just as much as I reject alQaeda. No less.

128

So I suppose you would have released German soldiers who fell into our hands in World War II? Do you feel they were detained illegally?

They were held without trial. They were ‘denied’ lawyers. They seems to have gotten largely the same treatment as the detainees in Cuba.

I see no legal, moral or practical difference in this case.

We must defend civilization. Since the time of the hoplites, civilization has been protected by a wall of force. It is not pretty, at times it is rather brutal, but without protection, civilized people would be enslaved.

129

I have found a very well-reasoned post on this subject that really makes the anti-detention point over on Tanknet.

I recommend it to you. http://63.99.108.76/ubb/Forum8/HTML/010630.html

It is by Benjamin Etxaburu and ought to be on the top half of the first page as TankNet puts the most recent posts at the top.

As I said, he makes some excellent points.

130

For all of those above who said that such torture would not be possible because US soldiers would not do this:

131

…well, as since the threads been bumped…

…take a look at any of my cites above, and tell me how some of those people fit into the same category as the “German Soldier”… to summarize…

  • We have a taxi driver arrested while stopped at a checkpoint-turned over to US forces for bounty payments

  • The passenger in the above taxi-also sent to Cuba

  • The above taxi drivers best friend-sent to Cuba after going to the Coalition Forces to find out what happened to his friend

  • Five Bosnian citizens-released from Terror charges in Bosnia due to lack of evidence-shipped out to Cuba dispite an injunction preventing thier removal…

  • Two British Citizens-detained illegally in Gambia before being flown to Cuba

  • Moazzam Begg, abducted from his HOUSE in Pakistan…

  • A bread maker on the Pakastani Border-again turned in for bounty payments

  • a 30-year-old Afghan farmer captured by Afghan forces who "seemed most interested in stealing his car and money

  • a 22-year-old Afghan who sold firewood at a bus station in Konduz and was picked up by Northern Alliance forces while he and six others were traveling to Kabul, the Afghan capital.

  • low-level soldiers conscripted when they couldn’t afford payments required by the Taliban to avoid service

  • “Wild Bill”- a man who would “eat his own feces, dump fresh water from his canteen and urinate in it and drink it,” "

  • Prisoners who were on the “DO NOT SEND TO GUANTANAMO” list, who, through bungling in the paperwork, made their way to the TOP of the "SEND TO GUANTANAMO list, and because Junior Officers didn’t want to challenge their bosses, LET THEM GO?
    http://www.latimes.com/la-na-gitmo22dec22,0,2294365.story
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/programmes/panorama/transcripts/insideguantanamo.txt

…just a “small” cross section of the cases that we know about in Guantanamo, so tell me, how many of these people fit the profile of “illegal combantant” ? Is the only way to “protect” civilization locking up people without a trial? And I’m still waiting on a cite to say that “any” of the people in Guantanamo were caught on the battlefield…

132

So, the chief interrogator at Guantanamo advised on techniques to be used at Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad

From the Taguba Report:

http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm

“6. (U) The Investigating Team also reviewed the Assessment of DoD Counter-Terrorism Interrogation and Detention Operations in Iraq conducted by MG Geoffrey D. Miller, Commander, Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO). From 31 August to 9 September 2003, MG Miller led a team of personnel experienced in strategic interrogation to HQ, CJTF-7 and the Iraqi Survey Group (ISG) to review current Iraqi Theater ability to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence. MG Miller’s team focused on three areas: intelligence integration, synchronization, and fusion; interrogation operations; and detention operations. MG Miller’s team used JTF-GTMO procedures and interrogation authorities as baselines. (ANNEX 20)”

Do some of the “outrageous” claims by Brits and others released from Guantanamo make sense now?

Above, much was made of parading ‘prostitutes’ in front of prisoners and this seemed to provoke disbelief. Now that we know what went on in Baghdad where the ICRC has full and unfettered access, what is not possible in Guantanamo?

The techniques now accepted to have happened in Baghdad are very similar to allegations made by those released from Guantanamo- do we now accept these allegations at face value? How can they realistically be denied?

133

Although the abuse at Abu Gharib prison was terrible, I hope some good can come of this: That we will no longer bury our heads in the sand about the possibility of prisoners being abused. No longer can we brush aside these concerns with “our soldiers would never do that” because quite clearly some of our soldiers (admittedly a very tiny fraction of them) are capable of doing these things.

If these pictures had never become public, not a damned thing would have been done about it other than covering the incident up. Frankly that’s scary. Those who think that keeping prisoners incommunicado in a remote location is a good idea should keep in mind that secrecy is a breeding ground for abuse.

134

I suspect that the Administration really has learned something from this, Blalron. It’s “we need more secrecy”.

135

You’re being quite innocent here, don’t you think?

At one point, one of these images will be proven to be fake.

(Before anyone starts shouting, notice I said ONE, not some, not all, but a single image)

At that point, the Usual Suspects will be around here yelling and screaming about how it was all a bunch of anti-America bullshit, and that everyone should be ashamed of themselves for falling for it. When it’s pointed out that only one image was faked, there will be a bunch of handwaving followed by a quick exit.

Then some Canadian will come in and throw around some really shitty logic that will try to explain how all of this coming out is a good thing, and all of you liberals are just too stupid to understand that it’s all part of The Grand Design.

Just wait. You know it will happen.

-Joe

136

No, not innocent.

Pakistani and British men are released from Guantanamo telling tales of virtual torture- physical and sexual- and are disbelieved by people who think that the US could never do this. Photographs of similar actions from US forces in Iraq are published and agreed as true images by the POTUS no less(!). Then it becomes apparent that the chief torturer at Guantanamo was transferred to Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad to “review current Iraqi Theater ability to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence”, i.e., to get the torture right. There seems to be a strong line of believability running through this saga.

Innocent, no; worldly-wise, yes.

137

Here’s an apropos comment on this subject. It all leads back to Bushco at some point since none of this would have happened if we hadn’t undertaken this foolish war:

138

And there’s more:

“Two British men who were held at Guantánamo Bay claimed that their US guards subjected them to abuse similar to that perpetrated at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
In an open letter to President George Bush, Britons Shafiq Rasul and Asif Iqbal accused US military officials of deliberately misleading the public about procedures at Guantánamo.”
…
“From the moment of our arrival in Guantánamo Bay (and indeed from long before) we were deliberately humiliated and degraded by methods we now read US officials denying,” the men write.
…
"The men describe a regime that included assaults on prisoners, prolonged shackling in uncomfortable positions, strobe lights, loud music and being threatened with dogs.
…
"At times, detainees would be taken to the interrogation room and chained naked on the floor, the letter says. Women would be brought to the room to "inappropriately provoke and indeed molest them.
…
"Shortly before their release last March, the two men say a new practice was instituted in what became known as the “Romeo” block. Prisoners were stripped completely. “After three days they would be given underwear. After another three days they would be given a top, and then after another three days given trouser bottoms,” the letter says.

That account stands in direct contradiction to denials this week from a Pentagon spokesman, Colonel David McWilliams, that nudity and embarrassment were never used to break down prisoners. “We have no protocol that allows us to disrobe a detainee whatsoever,” Col McWilliams told the Washington Post."

Seems like Abu Ghraib is letting the cat out of the bag about normal US interrogation procedures.

And see:

“The US military prison torture scandal widened further yesterday as new evidence emerged of beatings and sexual abuse of detainees in army jails in Afghanistan.
"
An Afghan police colonel told reporters from the New York Times and Associated Press that he had been repeatedly beaten, stripped naked and threatened with dogs for nearly 40 days last year at several US-run bases in Afghanistan. He also accused American prison guards of sticking their fingers in his anus and taunting him sexually.”

Bit of a pattern here methinks.

139

Every day there seems to be more evidence of links between Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and other Jail facilities using torture:

"Dozens of videotapes of American guards allegedly engaged in brutal attacks on Guantanamo Bay detainees have been stored and catalogued at the camp, an investigation by The Observer has revealed.

“The disclosures, made in an interview with Tarek Dergoul, the fifth British prisoner freed last March, who has been too traumatised to speak until now, prompted demands last night by senior politicians on both sides of the Atlantic to make the videos available immediately.”
…
"It is the case of Dergoul, however, that is likely to be the most damaging. The 26-year-old, from Mile End in east London, spent 22 months at Guantanamo Bay from May 2002. Today he tells The Observer of repeated assaults by Camp Delta’s punishment squad, known as the Extreme Reaction Force or ERF.

Their attacks, he says, would be prompted by minor disciplinary infractions, such as refusing to agree to the third cell search in a day - which he describes as an act of deliberate provocation.

Dergoul tells of one assault by a five-man ERF in shocking terms: 'They pepper-sprayed me in the face, and I started vomiting. They pinned me down and attacked me, poking their fingers in my eyes, and forced my head into the toilet pan and flushed.

‘They tied me up like a beast and then they were kneeling on me, kicking and punching. Finally they dragged me out of the cell in chains, into the rec[reation] yard, and shaved my beard, my hair, my eyebrows.’"

"However, it is Dergoul who now reveals that every time the ERFs were deployed, a sixth team member recorded on digital video everything that happened.

Lieutenant Colonel Leon Sumpter, the Guantanamo Joint Task Force spokesman, confirmed this last night, saying all ERF actions were filmed so they could be ‘reviewed’ by senior officers. All the tapes are kept in an archive there, he said. He refused to say how many times the ERF squads had been used and would not discuss their training or rules of engagement, saying: ‘We do not discuss operational aspects of the Joint Task Force mission.’"

So now we know that there is video evidence of brutality at Guantanamo, taken officially.

Will this ever be published.

I note that there is no response from Beagle whose original contention was that Guantanamo was some sort of leisure facility!