# Revisiting the Moral Highground: Torturing Terrorism Suspects in Afghanistan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973 "2002-12-26T15:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/21 "2002-12-26T20:44:14Z")
The two are intimately connected. The question of the justifiability of torture as regards al-Qaeda cannot be reduced to an abstract “bad guy/good guy” situation. You can’t limit the discussion of torture to an abstract “aggressor vs. defender” moral dilemma and then try to fit al-Qaeda and the US neatly into those slots. It begs the question of whether or not al-Qaeda really is the sole aggressor. Further examination of the scenario is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/22 "2002-12-26T20:51:53Z")
Okay, fair enough. If it starts to overwhelm the torture discussion, will you mind if I divert it elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/23 "2002-12-26T20:54:40Z")
Yeah, sure… I’m not trying to overwhelm the discussion, just throw in brain fodder. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/24 "2002-12-26T20:58:12Z")
Gee, again we are going to strain the definition of a word to the point where it becomes meaningless. So let’s go thru this logic, and see where the eroor comes up. 1. Civilizied people agree that “torture” is wrong. 2. Since the Post calls “stress & duress” = “torture”, it must be so, besides- it isn’t very nice. 3 Thus, what the USA is doing is uncivilized. So- I got you covered on 1, although we could quibble a lot. However- #2 is wrong, thus your logic (and conclusion) is fallacious. Torture is "The infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. “Stress & duress” is not “physical pain”. “Roughing someone up during capture” is not “severe”, nor is the pain inflicted for “punishment or coercion”. The police also must inflict pain when capturing someone, and the SC hasn’t said that is “torture”- as long as the amount of pain inflicted is in line with the circumstances & needs. The Iraqis, and other “bad guys” in the Middle east do perform things like the “ole jumper cables on the testicles” routinely. THAT is “torture” and saying we deprive dudes of sleep= torture make the word meaningless, or trivializes the very real severe physical pain torture that is still commonly inflicted. But of course, we can’t mention the REAL torturers in the world- oh no. Thus, we are NOT “torturing” terrorism suspects in Afganistan. How about using some less loaded words, huh? Or does “we are not being very nice to suspected terrorists” not have the same ring to it? ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/25 "2002-12-26T21:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\* > Torture is "The infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. “Stress & duress” is not “physical pain”. “Roughing someone up during capture” is not “severe”, nor is the pain inflicted for “punishment or coercion”. The police also must inflict pain when capturing someone, and the SC hasn’t said that is “torture”- as long as the amount of pain inflicted is in line with the circumstances & needs. > > The Iraqis, and other “bad guys” in the Middle east do perform things like the “ole jumper cables on the testicles” routinely. THAT is “torture” and saying we deprive dudes of sleep= torture make the word meaningless, or trivializes the very real severe physical pain torture that is still commonly inflicted. But of course, we can’t mention the REAL torturers in the world- oh no. > > Thus, we are NOT “torturing” terrorism suspects in Afganistan. How about using some less loaded words, huh? Or does “we are not being very nice to suspected terrorists” not have the same ring to it? \*\* In the article, it is stated that we also hand prisoners over to be questioned (with a list of what the US wants to know) by operatives from Jordan, Egypt, and Morocco, who **do** use torture. So, letting someone else apply the electrodes is ok? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/26 "2002-12-26T21:08:20Z")
Well, if you want to play with dictionary definitions, let’s see what the OED has to say: > [@](#): > > To inflict severe pain or suffering upon; to torment; to distress or afflict grievously So let’s see what the CIA is up to, shall we? > [@](#): > > [prisoners are] kept standing or kneeling for hours, in black hoods or spray-painted goggles What else? > [@](#): > > captives are often “softened up” by MPs and U.S. Army Special Forces troops who beat them up and confine them in tiny rooms and, finally > [@](#): > > blindfolded and thrown into walls, bound in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep If that doesn’t fall under the definition of “to distress or affect grievously”, I don’t know what does. Therefore, I stand firmly alongside **minty green** in the assertion that the CIA is indeed torturing Afghani prisoners. Care to try again? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/27 "2002-12-26T21:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > \*\*Well, if you want to play with dictionary definitions, let’s see what the OED has to say: > > and, finallyIf that doesn’t fall under the definition of “to distress or affect grievously”, I don’t know what does. > \*\* Well, then listening to “gangsta rap” for me results in “distress or affect grievously”. So does 80’s “hair rock”. :rolleyes: Or lots of things, including some posters ideas of logic. So, the new definition is “anything I really, REALLY don’t like = torture”. Indeed- a “tortured” definition. I’ll bet that OED def is not #1, right? And the bit about captives being beaten up (beyond what is nessesary to subdue them)? Unconfirmed. Doubtful. Prove it. And Alatariel? Sure, if our allies use REAL physical torture, that’s wrong, too. Where were you when our prisoners were being tortured by the Iraqi’s during Desert Storm? ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/28 "2002-12-26T21:25:35Z")
making the criminal captives (not POW’s according to us) a bit nervous and slightly physically uncomfortable doesn’t rise to the level of torture, IMHO. When we start cutting off body parts, using electric shock, implementing the rack, breaking bones, using ice picks under fingernails and vices on scotums, let me know and I’ll be more than happy to protest against it alongside you. For the meantime, I don’t even think we should be giving these guys korans and telling them which way mecca is. Give them mcdonalds and some porno mags, and if they insist on knowing which way mecca is, point 'em towards Washington, D.C. ---
**Author:** ![perspective](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@perspective](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perspective)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/29 "2002-12-26T21:42:54Z")
Does anyone know if this treatment would qualify as torture under the Geneva Convention? ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/30 "2002-12-26T21:47:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*Well, then listening to “gangsta rap” for me results in “distress or affect grievously”. So does 80’s “hair rock”. :rolleyes: Or lots of things, including some posters ideas of logic. So, the new definition is “anything I really, REALLY don’t like = torture”. Indeed- a “tortured” definition. I’ll bet that OED def is not #1, right? > > And the bit about captives being beaten up (beyond what is nessesary to subdue them)? Unconfirmed. Doubtful. Prove it. > > And Alatariel? Sure, if our allies use REAL physical torture, that’s wrong, too. Where were you when our prisoners were being tortured by the Iraqi’s during Desert Storm? \*\* Hmmm. Real physical torture. From the Post article, on Jordan: "But the State Department’s 2001 human rights report criticized Jordan and its General Intelligence Directorate for arbitrary and unlawful detentions and abuse. “The most frequently alleged methods of torture include sleep deprivation, beatings on the soles of the feet, prolonged suspension with ropes in contorted positions and extended solitary confinement,” the 2001 report noted. Jordan also is known to use prisoners’ family members to induce suspects to talk." (The State Dept would be the US State Dept). On Morocco: “The State Department’s human rights report says Moroccan law “prohibits torture, and the government claims that the use of torture has been discontinued; however, some members of the security forces still tortured or otherwise abused detainees.”” One more quote: “In at least one case, U.S. operatives led the capture and transfer of an al Qaeda suspect to Syria, which for years has been near the top of U.S. lists of human rights violators and sponsors of terrorism.” If it isn’t good for them to use these techniques on their own, why does it become ok for them to employ them for us? During Desert Storm? Why, I was busy being appalled that torture was used. Silly me, why, I might have even been happy to live in a place that didn’t use those sorts of tactics. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/31 "2002-12-26T21:54:46Z")
What part of “if our Allies use real physical torture, that’s wrong” don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/32 "2002-12-26T21:58:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*What part of “if our Allies use real physical torture, that’s wrong” don’t you understand? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > Thus, we are NOT “torturing” terrorism suspects in Afganistan. How about using some less loaded words, huh? Or does “we are not being very nice to suspected terrorists” not have the same ring to it? > \*\* How is handing people over to be tortured different from torturing them? Is it wrong for us to hand them over like this? I think it’s wrong and I think our hands are dirty for it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/33 "2002-12-26T22:00:53Z")
So, Mr. Deth, given that the U.S. State Department defines sleep deprivation and prolonged suspension with ropes as torture, it doesn’t bother you that we’re doing the same thing–plus physical beatings, if the Post’s source is correct–in Afghanistan? I love the smell of hypocricy in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/34 "2002-12-26T22:08:25Z")
Torture is not limited to strapping jumper cables to testicles and giving savage beatings. > [@](#): > > Well, then listening to “gangsta rap” for me results in “distress or affect grievously”. So does 80’s “hair rock”. Or lots of things, including some posters ideas of logic. If somebody was forcing you to listen to gangsta rap at a very loud volume for extended periods of time, depriving you of sleep for days on end, yes that would be torture. > [@](#): > > So, the new definition is “anything I really, REALLY don’t like = torture”. Indeed- a “tortured” definition. No, it is not. One of the definitions of Torture is “to distress or affect grievously”. You are the one making the new definition as a strawman. > [@](#): > > I’ll bet that OED def is not #1, right? Definition #1 torture is bad, but Definition #2 torture is not because it’s not #1. That’s what I’m getting from you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/35 "2002-12-26T22:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*So, Mr. Deth, given that the U.S. State Department defines sleep deprivation and prolonged suspension with ropes as torture, it doesn’t bother you that we’re doing the same thing–plus physical beatings, if the Post’s source is correct–in Afghanistan? > > I love the smell of hypocricy in the morning. \*\* “AND prolonged suspension with ropes (in contorted positions)” not to mention “beatings on the soles of the feet”. So- we are NOT “doing the same thing”. Sorry, simple “sleep deprivation” is not “torture”, although I agree it is unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/36 "2002-12-26T22:26:02Z")
Oh, so it’s only torture if all those things are cumulative and exactly as described, e.g., beatings on soles of the feet as opposed to just general beatings? Sure, that’s exactly what it says in the dictionary. And thanks once again for focusing on sleep deprivation to the exclusion of the other intentional inflictions of pain described in the OP. I assume you would have no objection of, for instance, Dick Cheney was kidnapped by terrorists and subjected to such treatment? Interesting google experiment: “sleep deprivation is torture” yields 47 hits. “sleep deprivation is not torture” yields 0 hits. ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/37 "2002-12-26T22:36:35Z")
[The US is signatory on this convention](http://193.194.138.190/pdf/report.pdf) > [@](#): > > Article 1 > > 1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. This is a definition that the US has agreed to abide by- it might be a more appropriate definition than the OED. > [@](#): > > From Article 2: > > 1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction. > > 2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. Please the **lack** of acceptable justifications. ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/38 "2002-12-26T22:40:59Z")
:smack: The name of the convention is Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Adopted and opened for signature, ratification and accession by General Assembly resolution 39/46 of 10 December 1984 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/39 "2002-12-26T22:44:47Z")
“…Severe pain or suffering…”. So- is “stress & duress” pain? No. Is it “suffering”? Maybe. Is it “severe”? Well, the US clearly doesn’t think so. So, what we have here is an acceptable definition, but we can’t agree that what we are doing falls under it. Some dudes would say that “normal everyday” solitary confinement, or even just plain old prison life is “severe suffering”… but it ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/40 "2002-12-26T23:13:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*"…Severe pain or suffering…". Well that was a remarkable snip you took from that quote. For the record, what you omitted was "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted . . . " Kinda blows the crap out of your contention that “torture” is only limited to physical pain and suffering, don’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973.md?page=3)