# Revisiting the Moral Highground: Torturing Terrorism Suspects in Afghanistan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973 "2002-12-26T15:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/41 "2002-12-26T23:26:42Z")
You know, if you’d just read… “Is stress & duress”… suffering? Maybe". I said we COULD accept the UN Conventions definition of torture (although it is very vague & generalistic), and yes, it includes “mental”. What it doesn’t do is define “severe”. So, I deny that by a standard definition that “mental duress” is torture. However- I agree that if we loosen the definition to that of the UN Convention it can be. But then I deny that “stress & duress” is “severe suffering”. So- where are the indictments in the Hague, then? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/42 "2002-12-26T23:38:49Z")
So, you conced then that you were wrong when you argued that the infliction of mental suffering was not “torture,” am I right? Wouldn’t want you to weasel out of that one, like you keep trying to weasel out of addressing the physical forms of coercion the Post strory describes. By the way, Alatriel missed another pertinent provision from [the Convention](http://193.194.138.190/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm) earlier: > [@](#): > > Article 3 > > 1. No State Party shall expel, return (“refouler”) or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture. > > 2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights. Oopsie, there’s another apparent violation of international law. Finally, allow me to ask, kind Deth: How would _you_ define “severe”? Just gonna assert that sleep deprivation ain’t it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/43 "2002-12-27T00:07:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*So, you conced then that you were wrong when you argued that the infliction of mental suffering was not “torture,” am I right? Wouldn’t want you to weasel out of that one, like you keep trying to weasel out of addressing the physical forms of coercion the Post strory describes. > > By the way, Alatriel missed another pertinent provision from Oopsie, there’s another apparent violation of international law. > > Finally, allow me to ask, kind Deth: How would _you_ define “severe”? Just gonna assert that sleep deprivation ain’t it? \*\* What’s “conced”? Read my posts. I said that the only non-disputable definition of torture includes severe physical pain. I then said that we _COULD_- for this debate- also include the UN defintion, which does include severe mental suffering. I also say IMHO that the US treatment does not arise to “severe”, and if it does, then you’ll see some convictions for such in the World Court. However- it doesn’t, which is why there isn’t even any indictments for same. In the worlds big picture, “stress & duress”- as unpleasant as it may be- is not even a “2” on the 1\>10 scale of “torture” currently going on. So to re-iterate: 1. Mental suffering isn’t normally included as “torture”. 2. If you do include it, what the US is doing isn’t severe enough to fit into the definition. 3. The other, more physical aspects alleged to are unconfirmed & doubtful. It’s not important as to what _I_ define as “severe”, however- what’s important is how actual convictions for such are brought down. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/44 "2002-12-27T00:19:26Z")
DrDeth, putting your semantic quibblings about the definition of “torture” aside for the moment: Do you believe that the treatment of terrorism suspects, as outlined by the OP, is cruel treatment? Is it morally wrong? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/45 "2002-12-27T00:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > Read my posts. I said that the only non-disputable definition of torture includes severe physical pain. No. In point of fact, you said this: > [@](#): > > Torture is "The infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. “Stress & duress” is not “physical pain”. “Roughing someone up during capture” is not “severe”, nor is the pain inflicted for “punishment or coercion”. The police also must inflict pain when capturing someone, and the SC hasn’t said that is “torture”- as long as the amount of pain inflicted is in line with the circumstances & needs. You only started weaseling out of that after Alatriel posted the Convention definition, which the U.S. has agreed to. So, allow me to repeat: Do you now concede that “torture” includes the infliction of mental suffering, not only physical pain? Answer the question directly, please. > [@](#): > > I also say IMHO that the US treatment does not arise to “severe” Yes, I see. Now, since as you point out that the Convention does not define “severe,” how 'bout you take a shot at it? Once again, please answer the question directly instead of dithering. > [@](#): > > 1. The other, more physical aspects alleged to are unconfirmed & doubtful. Bullshit. _None_ of the details reported by the Post have been officially confirmed, even the sleep deprivation that you assume to be true. In the complete absence of an official denial of the physical acts described, or contradictory information from other sources, you are simply picking and choosing the details you wish to believe for the convenience of your argument. By the way, your “Where are the indictments?” argument is fallacious in the extreme. Not only is there no mechanism for such indictments in the Convention, it assumes the existence of notice to a tribunal, an adequate time for investigation, the cooperation of the parties responsible for the torture, the identification of the torturers, etc., etc. Query: Nobody has ever been indicted for the death of Jon Benet Ramsey. Does that mean she was not murdered? ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/46 "2002-12-27T01:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\* > By the way, your “Where are the indictments?” argument is fallacious in the extreme. Not only is there no mechanism for such indictments in the Convention, it assumes the existence of notice to a tribunal, an adequate time for investigation, the cooperation of the parties responsible for the torture, the identification of the torturers, etc., etc. > > \*\* FYI- the UN actualy does have a body for investigation- the Committee against Torture. Most recent press release covered incidents from 1999 and before. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/47 "2002-12-27T02:09:43Z")
Yes, but the Committee has no adjudicative authority. Its sole power is the ability to receive information and issue reports. There is no enforcement mechanism for the Covention Against Torture. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/48 "2002-12-27T02:41:38Z")
Need information fast? Hindered by wimpy-ass liberals? Try all new, improved Torture Lite… ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/49 "2002-12-27T03:16:24Z")
Newspeak. Call something inadmissible by a more admissible name in order to justify it. Or call something by a worse name in order to condemn it. So now “torture” is not torture but merely “discomfort”. It makes me sick. That is what communist governments did. They locked up prisoners in “mental institutions” and “reeducation camps”. Bullshit. This is a shame on the USA and decent people everywhere should be clamoring against it. A huge shame on a country that is supposed to stand for human dignity and human rights. And handing them to other countriues is just as bad. The Spanish Inquisition never killed a single person. The Church could not do such things as they had a message of love. No, they just handed the sinner to the civil authorities even though they knew full well what the result was. Who would believe their hands were clean? Nobody. Who will believe the hands of the USA are clean? Nobody It is sad and shameful. ---
**Author:** ![CLedet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@CLedet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLedet)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/50 "2002-12-27T04:35:33Z")
I’m with sailor. This makes me sick, and I don’t believe we can justify torture by calling it something else. With that said I have to admit this statement by olentzero not only baffles me but pisses me off: > [@](#): > > The blood on the hands of bin Laden are faded stains compared to the blood on the hands of the US government and the US military from their involvement in the Middle East. Not only is this the most idiotic thing I’ve read but it could have only been authored by a complete fucking asshole. So tell me olent, how does it feel to wake up everyday in a country you hate so much? Want to make an excuse for the D.C. sniper too? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/51 "2002-12-27T14:18:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Not only is this the most idiotic thing I’ve read but it could have only been authored by a complete fucking asshole. [Moderator Hat ON] CLedet, this forum is NOT the place to call people names. Do not do this again. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/52 "2002-12-27T14:38:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*You know, if you’d just read… “Is stress & duress”… suffering? Maybe". I said we COULD accept the UN Conventions definition of torture (although it is very vague & generalistic), and yes, it includes “mental”. What it doesn’t do is define “severe”. So, I deny that by a standard definition that “mental duress” is torture. However- I agree that if we loosen the definition to that of the UN Convention it can be. But then I deny that “stress & duress” is “severe suffering”. > ? \*\* _Stress and duress_, as **sailor** pointed out, is a dihonest attempt to call it something nicer so we won’t object as much. Listen, if this was happening to _our soldiers_ who were captured, I think we’d all be using the word ‘torture’. I’ve become quite the hawk in my advancing age, but this is wrong. It’s not who we’re supposed to be. It has to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/53 "2002-12-27T15:31:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CLedet \* > **With that said I have to admit this statement by olentzero not only baffles me but pisses me off…** Yes, I’ve noticed that exposing one’s mind to a completely unexpected perspective and at the same time absolutely refusing to consider that perspective often results in severe crankiness. Asking “What do you mean by that?” instead of saying “You suck because I don’t agree with what you said” does help alleviate the symptoms. > [@](#): > > \*\*So tell me olent, how does it feel to wake up everyday in a country you hate so much? Want to make an excuse for the D.C. sniper too? \*\* It feels damn fine, since I’m actively involved in trying to change what I don’t like about it. And there’s quite a large difference between “explain” and “excuse”. Offering an explanation for something doesn’t automatically entail my condoning it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/54 "2002-12-27T16:13:15Z")
How about a “torture warrant”. If the location of the ticking bomb about to blow up NYC is only known to the terrorist we just captured. His suffering is worth saving the lives of millions. etc, etc, etc. I think it would be better to have a **legal** way that is out in the open to facilitate this. If this existed, they would not be granted often. A judge would only sign off on this under the most dire of circumstances. I would think it would be better than what some here seem to be suggesting of making it flat out illegal and then _wink_ _wink_ letting the authorities break the law if the situation seems to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/55 "2002-12-27T16:16:20Z")
Legalities aren’t an effective enough measure to prevent the use of torture. Check out that link I included in my first post to this thread. And I for one am certainly not proposing keeping torture illegal and then turning a blind eye to its use. ---
**Author:** ![CLedet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@CLedet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLedet)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/56 "2002-12-27T16:20:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, I’ve noticed that exposing one’s mind to a completely unexpected perspective and at the same time absolutely refusing to consider that perspective often results in severe crankiness. You basically said OSBL ain’t that bad when compared to the US government and US military. That’s a pile of shit, plain and simple. > [@](#): > > Asking “What do you mean by that?” instead of saying “You suck because I don’t agree with what you said” does help alleviate the symptoms. The meaning didn’t escape me, don’t try to back off now. And don’t blame me for that smell. > [@](#): > > It feels damn fine, since I’m actively involved in trying to change what I don’t like about it. Now that’s the American spirit. You go girl! > [@](#): > > And there’s quite a large difference between “explain” and “excuse”. Yeah, and you need to learn it. Your statement was clear and precise. > [@](#): > > Offering an explanation for something doesn’t automatically entail my condoning it. I agree, but given the general tone of your post, it does give the reader an idea of how you feel and your motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dc4da7/32.png) [@Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rider)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/57 "2002-12-27T16:25:08Z")
Ask yourself how you would feel if you heard that US prisoners in the Middle East were being subject to the same treatment. That might help some people on this thread put the matter into perspective. Torture is wrong for what it is, not who is doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/58 "2002-12-27T16:32:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CLedet \* > **You basically said OSBL ain’t that bad when compared to the US government and US military. That’s a pile of shit, plain and simple.** No, I most certainly did _not_. Bin Laden’s a monster. But the US is in no position to pass itself off as the white hat in this scenario. > [@](#): > > **The meaning didn’t escape me, don’t try to back off now.** I rather think it did escape you. > [@](#): > > \*\*given the general tone of your post, it does give the reader an idea of how you feel and your motivations. \*\* What, that I somehow support bin Laden and al-Qaeda? Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/59 "2002-12-27T16:58:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I would think [a torture warrant] would be better than what some here seem to be suggesting of making it flat out illegal and then _wink_ _wink_ letting the authorities break the law if the situation seems to justify it. I don’t want to live in a country where torture is legal under any circumstances. I don’t want to live in a country where a judge could exonerate someone _in advance_ for torturing me. That’s a mighty dangerous power for anyone to have. And I don’t think anyone here is talking about winking at illegal torture. Any authority in a “ticking bomb” scenario who feels strongly enough about the threat involved that he would break the law and engage in torture is still subject to prosecution for doing so. That is the system we have now. It is the legal status quo. Torture is (and should be) illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973/60 "2002-12-27T17:08:47Z")
**Olentzero** , I am confused about your position on one thing. You seem to be an absolutist on the use of torture. Is that so? Putting legalities aside for a moment, are you saying that there is no conceivable set of circumstances under which torture might be morally justified? What about the standard “ticking bomb” scenario? A nuclear bomb is planted in NYC and set to go off. You have in custody a person who knows where the bomb is located. They aren’t talking. What do you do? (Please answer; I am curious.) While I agree that the situation described in the OP is abominable, I can imagine situations in which the moral choices are not as clear-cut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/revisiting-the-moral-highground-torturing-terrorism-suspects-in-afghanistan/144973.md?page=4)